April 18, 2006


Possible picture of the Joooo obsessed assmonkey named Alex.

Ok, I made my Atheist case for Israel. Another blogger, Meme Escape really liked it and linked my post on her blog(she has lived in Israel and her fascinating story is available on her blog). In her comment section she stated: "Take a look at Nogod.com. It’s the friggin’ American Atheists official blog and there’s a thread about the I/P conflict that is little more than Jew/Israeli bashing. It’s sad that atheists – who pride themselves on evidence and critical thinking – bit the bait hook, line and sinker."

This didn't shock me, but I went over to investigate and sure enough, the rhetoric was flying.

But my focus is on one imbecile over there ALEXGATOR1. I had him pegged from his first post as a Jew obsessed twerp.

Here are some of his comments on a story about Israel warning about a new axis of terror:

"Is there any way to stop this from happening?"

"Yeah, the Zionist jews can get the fuck out of Palestine. If I lived under a racist apartheid system where human rights violations of the worst kind were part of my everyday life I might go nuts and start blowing people up too.
I don't approve of what the terrorist did but I can imagine what it must be like to live under these conditions and this level of utter frustration and extreme circumstances can make people resort to extreme tactics.

Yep, he is a real thinking man's man that Alex is he is.

"What really bothers me is that the American media is si blatantly pro israel and never really shows the palestinian childrens bodies riddled with IDF bullets or the old Palestinian women being evicted from their homes just before the israeli bulldozers raze her home to the ground. The alternative media in the USA and the British media (BBC, Sky News, The Times) take a more neutral israeli stance and report the jewish atrocities towards the arabs which is why Europeans have a more balanced and realistic idea of what the conflict is all about. This has the ADL wringing it's hands about the new wave of "anti-semitism" in Europe which is in fact just a normal response to the crimes of israel.

Notice how this rhetorical retard capitalizes Palestinian, American, British, and Europeans, but doesn't capitalize Jewish or Israel. Must be have failed English or he just doesn't like Jews.

"The bottom line is that the unrest in the Middle East is all about a faith based country established by a land grab entrenched in the idea of jewish supremacy and specialness. There will never be peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians have their own state but of course the zionist jews and xians will fight this tooth and claw to support their greed and superstitious interests. Religion will be the cause of WWIII and the USA and the UK will be right there to defend poor little victimized israel. I for one don't want to see the world blown up because a small group of people have an arrogant sense of supernatural entitelment to a patch of shitty desert real estate.

Aww, poor Alex doesn't like the Israelis because of the Joooooooooooooooooooooos.

Yes israel is evil and I have spent a lot of time educating myself about the conflict both in university and on my own so please don't assume that I don't want to learn. If I formed my opinions by being spoon fed what the American press reported then I would hate "them muz-lem terr'ists who blow up the Holy Land". What else but evil could you call a government who treats the Palestinians the way that israel does? Second class citizenship, inability to own property, to marry israeli citizens, to vote, and restriction of movement not to mention the fact that the IDF routinley murders innocent Palestinian children who wander into sensitive areas or raze to the ground the homes and orchards and groves (livelihood) of Palestinians? "Israel" is one of the worst abusers of human rights and the israeli lobby has too much influence over US foreign policy. Why do you think we went to war in Iraq? It had nothing to do with spreading democracy and everything to do with securing oil and israeli security concerns. This is not conspiracy theory it is fact for anyone to see which has recently been given support by Harvard's JFK School of Government (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011) Israelis are no better than Nazis.

Alex, why don't you just say that you hate kikes. I know you want to. Why are you being such a coward.

Atheist Jew "Alex, you are a retard. Plain and simple"

"Can you say "argumentum ad hominem"?

I am just someone who sees through the lies and exaggerations of the zionists, both jew and xian, and doesn't bow down at the altar of holocaust fundamentalism. Jews are not entitled to inflict misery on the Palestinians just becasue jews have suffered historically. Two wrongs does not a right make my friend.

Arguing ad hominen? But wait, didn't you just call Israelis Nazis? Or was that your clone. Oh yes, and nice rhetoric. Where did you get your education? David Duke U?

This one is a classic, Alex is asking me how I can be an Atheist Jew, but he is accusing me of using my "Jewish specialness," anti-semites are so friggen retarded:

"How can you be a jew and an atheist at the same time anyway? On your own website you claim that anyone whose mother is jewish or who converts is a jew. Why does the former make one a jew? religious tradition? if so then as an atheist I would think that that would cancel out your jewishness. If my mother was Irish and catholic does that make me a catholic or just Irish even if I'm an atheist? Can I be a muslim-atheist? or a baptist-atheist? its an oxymoron.
I have asked many people the following question but so far no one has been able to tell me why being a jew is both a religion and an ethnicity when it doesn't work this way for anyone else. Just another instance of jewishness specialness? I'm really curious and so far I have not received a secular answer that satisfies me.

I called him an anti-semite, and instead of owning up to it, this was his cowardly predictable reply:

"So predictable atheist jew. Throwing around the term anti-semite at anyone who dares criticize israel or israeli policy. Well my kosher friend it doesn't work on me becasue as I told you I do not bow down to the pressure or the proganda of the holocaust industry or holocaust fundamentalism. I don't buy into the story of how the poor jews have been so oppressed and hated throughout history. So what? Join the fucking club. Almost any group of humans has been the target of a holocaust or genocide at one time or another and I refuse to give jewish suffering more importance than anyone elses. Jews are not special. Jews are not chosen. Jews are not above criticism. Jews are the same as everyone else except maybe for an unending sense of god given arrogance.
Take your sense of self importance and child like whining somewhere else where people care or pay attention-like maybe the ADL website

OK, and one more thing, I did a quick internet search of his ID along with the word Jew and found this gem on a David Irving thread:

"No it wouldn't make it any less horrible but it would expose the historical lies perpetuated by those who wish to maximize israeli support and gain the most sympathy for jews by proposing that six million died instead of the more probable figure of just under a million. Even one dead because of racial hate is wrong but that doesn't make it right to distort history, does it? My point is that historical free inquiry is being suppressed in the name of European hate laws which is just wrong in a supposed free society.

Where did the 5 million Jews go oh great historian Alex?

"They all immigrated to israel or North America. I never disputed that six million jews were *missing* from pre WWII Europe but absence doesn't mean dead.

What a retarded MAROON. He was probably dumped by a 12 year old Jewish girl when he was 14 and now he dreams about Jews. LMAO, too funny.

Alex, doesn't hate Jews, he just wants Jews wiped off the planet:

Zindlerlist about 9/11(another poster said):"don't forget this whole thing is because of our Israeli-occupied government. if the USA had a government that used reason instead of Zionism or Jew Supremacy as a guide to foreign policy, the 9/11 attacks would not have taken place. it is time for American Atheists to begin speaking out more against judaism, zionists and israel."

"ZindlersList is right on the mark with his comments about the Arab Islamic world's hatred of the West, and the USA and UK in particular, being based on support for the appalling apartheid Zionist policies regarding Palestinians living in "Israel". Zionist Jews and End Time Chrisitians tell the world that Muslims "hate our freedom and way of life" but this is just bullshit for the masses who don't have even a basic grasp of what the entire Palestinian and Jewish conflict is really about: the illeagle occupation of Palestinian lands by foreign Jews which is aided by American money and military might.
Once Israel ceases to exist the world will be a much more peacful place.

This was September 11th 2005. He was still capitalizing Israel, Jews and Zionists back then. Maybe he is Zindlerlist too. I wouldn't put it past the proven coward.

But in all seriousness, it is Atheists like this that really bother me. They throw facts out the door just so that they can hate. It just goes to show that there are pathetic Atheists in the world too.

Update: Our Alex is gay (not that there's anything wrong with that):

Comment from: alexgator1 [Member]
I too am a gay atheist (in the South!) and for too long gay people have been demonized, opressed, beaten, killed, and generally made to be fucking miserable by religious people and like you I make no apologies in attacking their mythology. Yes, I'm angry and I never pass up an oppourtunity to point out the fallacy of religion or argue with religious people about how incredibly ignorant and self delusional they are and I really could care less if this hurts someones feelings. Fuck the religious.

Ok, now I have to change my opinion of him. It wasn't a 12 year old Jewish girl who jilted him when he was 14, but a 12 year old Jewish boy. All the pieces are falling together. Talk about one really screwed up dude. Of all the major religions, Jews have been probably the most tolerant towards gays. He is from the South, so his hatred of Jews might have to do with anti-semitic parents. He should probably seek counselling, if he isn't already.


  1. The capitalization thing is just nitpicking—in that same paragraph he failed to capitalize "palestinian" and later doesn't capitalize "muslim" or "xtian" while he does later on capitalize "Jew."

    Bad English and grammar skills does not an anti-Semite make.

  2. The rest does guav. You are nitpicking if you think that this possible out gets him off the hook.

    And thanks again for informing me about the link being up.

  3. Sounds like a leftist who got a realy good education at some major school. Their is a bit of envy because Israel has been too sucessful so it must be evil. Anything the Palestinians do is justified since they are the oppressed underdogs.

    I'd sa he needs to wakeup and get a reality check. He has been reading too much revisionist history. He's the type that wouldn't know how to get out of the way of bulldozer. Time for intervention and deprogramming.

  4. Classic case of an Jew hater saying that he's not a Jew hater, he's just anti-zionist. Of course he wouldn't be anti-zionist if he wasn't neck deep in his Protocols B.S. Go get him man!

  5. Interesting A.J.. Since I haven't been to Israel I wanted to ask you this question and to anyone who lived in Israel. If an average Joe Israeli and an average Joe Palistinian meet on the street how would they both treat each other? Also what truth is in the claims of Arabs being second class in Israel and this "Aparthaid" accusations? Also what is Israel's policy towards accepting new citzens? do they have to be from Hebrew line or do they have to follow the Jewish religion or should they be semite cuz in later's case, Arabs, Jews and Baluch are semite? please explain this to me

  6. From an Israeli on Israeli apartheid, Bacon will appreciate it as it comes from a canadian site.


    Scroll down.

    "Jeshaya Leibowitz, a renowned religious Israeli thinker who coined the term
    "Judeo-Nazi", and was very far from being an anti-Semite."...

    "The most obvious factor is the definition of Israel as a "Jewish democratic"
    state. Israel has not yet succeeded in resolving the inherent contradiction
    therein (Jewish state - belonging to the Jewish people, democratic state
    -belonging to all its citizens). One thing that many people do not know is
    that Israel recognizes a "Jewish" nationality, but not an Israeli one.

    My ID card gives my nationality (as opposed to citizenship) as Jewish, not
    Israeli. The nationality of non-Jewish citizens of Israel is defined as
    Arab, Russian, Turkish and so on but, again, the Israeli nationality is not
    among them."

  7. A bit more on Jewish racism in Palestine.

    " Professor of Political Science at Haifa University and a true supporter of the Palestinians, Ilan Pappe in an interview well summarized the racist laws against the Palestinians in Israel:

    “For example, the law of the land, which says that 94% of the land in Israel belongs to the Jewish people alone, not to the state of Israel, and therefore 20% of the population -- the Arabs -- are barred from this land. Although the Arab population in Israel tripled compared to the Jewish population, there has not been one new Arab settlement or village built, while there are hundreds of new Jewish, towns, villages and settlements. So this is discrimination on the basis of ethnicity on land rights. You cannot exist in an agricultural society like the Arab one, if you are not allowed to expand according to your demographic group. That's one law.

    Then there is the law of citizenship, which says that Palestinians who may have brothers and sisters and relatives all over the Arab world are not allowed to reunite with their families, but Jews all around the world have all the rights to come and become full citizens from the moment they are born.

    The third one is the law of social welfare, which says that only people who have served in the army are entitled to the full welfare social system. Now, the Arabs are not allowed to serve in the army [with few exceptions, as with the Druze], and therefore they are not allowed full social services. And these are just the formal laws. There are many de facto manifestations of apartheid in the way towards the Arab population in the way that the budget is distributed; in the basic treatment by the authorities; the police; and so on.” [12]

    One question remains: How the hell does Israel get away with all this? Why is Israel, time after time, being called “the only democracy in the Middle East,” while its non-Jewish Arab citizens are forbidden to live on 80% of its land? How come almost no newspaper ever mentions that Jerusalem is being ethnically cleansed?"


    Basically, it is hard to argue with Alexander because he is generally right. But it is typical of radical zionists to accuse anyone who criticizes Israeli crimes against humanity of anti-semitism.

  8. Glo, I've never been to Israel, hopefully someone who has will answer your questions.

    Bernanda, you French whore, you are the last person who I would use as a source.
    You are just as retarded as Alex. You are nothing but a Jooo obsessed POS from Paris.

  9. You don't need to use me as a source; I give you sources that you can consult for yourself in their entirety.

    I don't see original sin in the use of sources. I have listed links here that are from Jewish sites of people I disagree with. I am not afraid of having arguments examined.

    I find your implied threat about Paris is rather revealing. It is typical of zionist fanatics to send messages meaning "we know who you are and how to get you".

    zionists have no rational or historical arguments, so they can only resort to threats to try to silence their opposition.

    The fact that it was important for you do make the search effort reveals the totalitarian nature of zionism.

  10. Don't worry Bernanda, nobody is going to get you.

    You can show all the sources you want, nobody denies that there are idiots out there like you. See Rense for example.

    It is funny how you take me knowing your location as a threat. I just bring it up because France is well known for its anti-semitic retards like you.

    It took me two seconds to find out where you are from, anyone with a blog or website has the same capabilities.

    You just hate Jews. You and your ilk are the reason that Israel exists and you justify it everytime you post.

    Israel thanks you.

  11. "Ilk" simply means "sort" or "kind". It is amazing the number of people who think it is perjorative.

    As I have told you before, I don't hate anyone, except maybe Bush, Cheney and all the members of their administration.

    Zionists, not Jews(I have given you many links to anti-zionist Jews) are the enemy. They are the enemy today, just as the nazis were the enemy in the thirties and forties.

    Defeating them does not mean hating them. You, however, have admitted to hating Palestinians.

  12. Well my kosher friend it doesn't work on me becasue as I told you I do not bow down to the pressure or the proganda of the holocaust industry or holocaust fundamentalism. I don't buy into the story of how the poor jews have been so oppressed and hated throughout history. So what? Join the fucking club

    This in combination with this...

    "No it wouldn't make it any less horrible but it would expose the historical lies perpetuated by those who wish to maximize israeli support and gain the most sympathy for jews by proposing that six million died instead of the more probable figure of just under a million. Even one dead because of racial hate is wrong but that doesn't make it right to distort history, does it?

    Looks pretty convincing to me. Holocaust deniers come in many flavors, but the all can be bought at the Anti-Semite general store.

  13. And I've told you Bernanda, that over 90% of Jews on this planet support a Jewish majority state, thus they are Zionists.

    If you hate Zionists, you hate Jews.

    Why don't you get lost already. I'm thinking about ignoring you, or moderating comments until you go.

    You are a Jew hating lying piece of shit, and you add nothing here.

    Chimp, don't you find it funny that anti-semites like Bernanda just hate to admit what they really are.

  14. I have found this link on Jewish Virtual Library about the UN resolution 2279 (Nov, 10th 1975) that declared Zionism to be part of Racism. Or is the UN anti-semtic too?


  15. GLO, it was revoked. But read this.

    I would say yes, that the UN was being anti-semitic. But you should decide on your own.

    The UN has changed since its inception. It seems to have a huge Arab bias. Could be the oil.

    BTW, I've decided to delete any new posts by Bretardo. I'm done with her blatant anti-semitism, rhetoric, lies and half truths. She can find a new forum to spew on.

  16. Bernanda, whenever I see your name on a post, I delete it now. No questions asked.

    I didn't even read the last post you probably spewed.

    Maybe you'll get it soon enough.

    There are millions of blogs in cyberspace. Get lost.

  17. I wasn't saying it gets him off the hook. If he's said enough dumb shit to sink him, there's no reason to waste any time on trivial things like his arbitrary lack of capitalization and give them an exaggerated importance. Separate the wheat from the chaff and your argument is stronger, know what I mean?

    And you're welcome for the updated link. Now we're even, as it was your entry that made me aware of the clip and led me to find it :)

  18. Wow Bacon!!!

    I haven't read your whole post, but I never really thought you would go after someone in this manner.

    I'll come back later and read the whole thing. I just wanted to say that I was surprised with this post.

  19. Why wouldn't I? I went after the person who denied me into the Blasphemy ring and the stupid Fundy on another blog in similar fashion.

    I'm not making things up. These are his actual quotes.

  20. Bernada,

    There is nothing to be gained by claiming that sources are more valid just because they are Jewish. That doesn't grant them immunity from making false and misleading claims. And it certainly doesn't prevent you from misunderstanding what they write either.

    Furthermore your equation of Zionists with nazism just impugns your case all the more. You clearly don't understand what you are talking about or you wouldn't make such a comparison.

  21. Thanks for telling me, I hae done some follow up and realized there was a huge influence of Arabs in the 70s becasue of the oil thing 1973. I don't think this is a hate blog and what Bern was doing could've been done without accusing Jew people of being racist. You cannont combat racism with more racism. I wrote a piece about Israel, you might wanna check it out on my blog


    Furthermore, I think Israel's founding was bit shaken from both sides as many Hebrew gangs committed atrocities to Arabs and natives. but what Israel stands for now is very noble. We really need a force of that kind to combat radicalism of Saddam and Ahmedinijad's Iranian regime. Bottom line is Israel IsReal and with the scientific facilities they have would prove vital in the future as LONG as no radical Judiaism gets it's way into the government and abolish the peace process, that cannont be done until a peaceful Palistinian regime could come to power. Fatah and Hamas are terrorists who conduct crimes against Israelis. They are the real racists.

  22. GLO,

    Israel is not allowed to join any UN sub groups, such as the Security Council, because that ability is linked to a countries ability to join a regional group. Israel has not been voted in to the Middle East Group because of the Muslim countries (I write Muslim because not all the Muslim countries are Arab).

    As to the fact that Israel treats some people different than others is nothing in comparison as to the way the Muslim countries treat people of different views. In Saudi Arabia non-Muslims are not allowed to pray in their own homes. In most Muslim countries non-Muslims are not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim. Attending schools are restricted and so is medical treatment. There are special taxes and they are not allowed to have government jobs. Sometimes there are exceptions to these rules but they are generally enforced.

    The Non-Jewish population of Israel is given all the rights that Jews are given. There are Arabs in the Knesset even. Israel built schools in the West Bank and never stops the Muslim population from praying or going to religious sites.

    Israel is like any other country, they make mistakes and do bad things. But I notice that Israel or Jewish haters always expect Israel to be way better than other countries. Bern stated that Israelis killed Palestinian children, who put the children in harms way, who put then in front of the riot? Who strapped bombs to their waists? The point I am making is that the Palestinians treat their children like fodder. If the Arab countries cared about the Arab refugees than they would have done something positive for them instead of keeping them in camps, not allowing them to have citizenship in their countries and continuing the false history and hatred.

    The Muslim world has been attacking the non-Muslim world for 1400 years, way before there was an Israel of even perceived Jewish influence on friendly governments.

    AJ I agree that Bern is a racist. It is simple. She hates.

  23. OMG!!!!!

    You know where I am and how to get me???????????????????

    I gotta go hide!

  24. First let me say what I gotta say.

    I don't know Bacon, seems kind of silly to me. Kind of kanalieish IMHO.

    You know - I don't like what the guy has to say. I will say that in my opinion he is a bigot as well.

    Sometimes that happens with Atheists as well - maybe even easier than you think. It's so easy for the atheist to look down on all those religious folk that are just the fools and look at all the mess they are making of our mother earth. Yeah right - the fact that he decides to label himself as an atheist rather than an agnostic or "human being" shows human nature in it's finest form - the need to organize, the need to have others of similar belief - the need to be labeled, to belong.

    No, I don't believe all atheists are like that, however there's a good amount of them that are like that.

    Also, you yourself prove human nature in your id - The Atheist Jew. Hmmmm, you can say what you want about the meaning of the word jew, but - and yes, I know plenty of "atheist jews" - all you are showing is a need to be with those like you.

    **taking a sip of water**

    Okay, where was I? Oh yeah, so anyway - everything I have read on your blog in terms of this guy are what I would consider bigoted, but not necessarilly "jew hatred", but rather still "religious hatred".

    See, most of what he states can be rationalized out - or I should say they are easy conspiracy theories, it would make sense to hype the holocaust. It would make sense to inflate the numbers. The thing is - it simply doesn't matter. A great catastrophe occured during WWII in which an astronomical amount of Jews were massacred. Genocide was attempted. Genocide occured. That is the bottom line.

    There are apartheid policies in Israel. I wouldn't call them appalling, but they do exist. More money goes to schools with a Jewish majority than schools with an Arab majority. Arabs can not buy homes in settlements. There are "Jewish" only settlements. There are THINGS - you can not deny that - there is at a minimum blatent government sponsored bigotry.

    Well, I've babbled on enough here - here's my suggestion - go to his blog and work on him (I haven't been there so I don't know how bad it is). Give him good arguments and I'm sure you can reroute his anger to a more appropriate religious group - like Islam ;-)

    Okay - now I gotta go see this bullshit that you've posted for an atheists argument for supporting Israel :)

  25. Yo Pimpette, my name is a label(and people consider me to be a Jew and an Atheist, people label). There is nothing wrong with calling yourself an Atheist,especially if the theme of your blog is about Atheism. On yahoo, I did it for attention. You are familiar with attention aren't you?

    You cherry picked this dudes posts. He is a definite anti-semite, and he also loathes Muslims, I could dig up a post he made using the term "camel jockeys"

    He said that I was brought up to think I was special because I was a Jew but he also questioned how I could consider myself to be a Jew if I'm an Atheist.

    He hate Muslims, but he hates Jews more, that is why he hates Israel.

    Oh, and every country does bad things. Even Israel. But fewer than many.

  26. Apikoros baal korchoApril 19, 2006 2:42 PM

    Not that it has anything to do with the other posts here, but an atheist can feel quite comfortable in Israel, much more so than in the United States. Even with all the heavy influence of the religious elements in Israeli society, Israel remains a secular state.

  27. Apikoros, welcome here. It is my understanding that agnostic/atheist Jews in Israel are between 25-40% depending on what stats you look at.
    Also, in case you didn't see this question by another commenter:

    "Interesting A.J.. Since I haven't been to Israel I wanted to ask you this question and to anyone who lived in Israel. If an average Joe Israeli and an average Joe Palistinian meet on the street how would they both treat each other? Also what truth is in the claims of Arabs being second class in Israel and this "Aparthaid" accusations? Also what is Israel's policy towards accepting new citzens? do they have to be from Hebrew line or do they have to follow the Jewish religion or should they be semite cuz in later's case, Arabs, Jews and Baluch are semite? please explain this to me"

    Could you answer this guys questions if possible?

  28. Well Holy Crap (pun intended)! lol You've been busy today, haven't you? :)

    I come to this topic semi-shrouded in ignorance of all of the finer details of this debate, but I only have one thing to add

    Holocaust deniers are scum.


  29. **blushing**

    Why, beaj, I wouldn't know anything about attention getting ;)!!!

    **batting eyelashes**

    I still stand by my human nature and grouping/organizing wanting to be with others like us theory.

    I do know that you are sincerely "not believing in god" and that you do seperate yourself from religion down to even the cultural aspacts as we've had this conversation before. It is an admirable quality. Now, if only we could get you out of this "defending Israel" crap (j/k).

    I didn't go to the guys site. I just looked over your cut and paste stuff. I'll take your word on his being a hater. Personally, I wouldn't be advertising such a person or hitting up thier site meter. He doesn't look like my type either, so, no point - lol.

    And - correction - Israel isn't all that bad compared to it's neighbors. However, Israel is nowhere near the westernized countries it so wants to appear to be.

  30. Chimp, don't you find it funny that anti-semites like Bernanda just hate to admit what they really are.

    Yep, they think they are fighting some cause for the rest of humanity against Jews and its not because they hate jews......riiiiiiiiiiiiiight

  31. Allie, holocaust denying is what comes natural to a born Jew hater. Some Jew haters though don't mind the idea of a high number of dead Jews so they don't argue.

    Pimpette, name some Western countries that are surrounded by enemies and have to worry about suicide bombs on a daily basis. And Alex wouldn't be interested in you, he might dig your other half though. See the update near the bottom of the post.

    Chimp, it is their denial that is laughable.

  32. Nice try Bernanda, but I know when you are sleeping and I know when you are awake.

    I'm deleting your messages, even if you come here as anonymous.

  33. Apikoros baal korchoApril 19, 2006 5:25 PM

    Without trying to "make an ugly bride pretty," as Israelis often say, I'll relate to the points you raise.

    What happens if a Joe Israeli and an average Joe Palestinian meet on the street? How would they both treat each other? That wouldn't happen in Israel. The Israelis and Palestinians don't meet in Israel today. The Intifada took care of that. Now Israelis and Palestinians truly do not mix at all.

    Also what truth is in the claims of Arabs being second class in Israel and this "Apartheid" accusations? Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel, but they do not serve in the Israeli army and, therefore, are less than fully integrated into the society because several benefits are given only to persons who have served in the military; that would apply to Jewish Israelis as well. Insofar as accusations of "Apartheid," there is no law that forces Arabs to live in certain districts, but Arabs have chosen to live in certain areas much as Jews in the Diaspora have chosen to live in certain areas.

    Also what is Israel's policy towards accepting new citzens? do they have to be from Hebrew line or do they have to follow the Jewish religion or should they be semite. The Law of Return stipulates that any person who is Jewish, whether by birth or by conversion according to halacha, i.e., Orthodox Jewish law, may claim Israeli citizenship. There is, of course, the naturalization route as is the case with other countries for persons who are not Jewish and do not choose to convert, and a non-Jew born in Israel would also be an Israeli national as well.

    I hope I've answered your questions adequately.

  34. Thanks Api, I will make sure GLO sees them. I posted your reply on another board as well. Here is the link. A lot of people there have no idea why they hate Israel so much, but they just do.

  35. Thanks for clearing that for me Korcho.. now I have a chance to be one of the civilized countries I could convert to Judiaism....where are the forms?? anyway I want to contribute this to the discussion about my little chat online with a palestinian from Jordan I would've carried on but the stupidity..

    just4palestine_s: hi
    just4palestine_s: asl plz
    G: 19 m Bahrain but I don't know Arabic..you
    just4palestine_s: 22 m jordan
    just4palestine_s: can i make chat with u plz
    just4palestine_s: where r u ?
    G: yes you can...what's your name?
    just4palestine_s: mohammed
    just4palestine_s: u ?
    G: I'm Loop...you have a unique nickname
    G: just for palestine
    just4palestine_s: this my nickname
    just4palestine_s: i have another
    just4palestine_s: its mohammed_alantary
    G: you are palestinian?
    just4palestine_s: yes
    just4palestine_s: but now live in jordan
    G: oh ok...why in Jordan?
    just4palestine_s: im in jordan sence 1988
    just4palestine_s: so i was cant try another live in another country eccept palestine
    G: don't you wanna go back to Palestine?
    just4palestine_s: i was born i kuwit
    just4palestine_s: i can back to palestine
    G: do you want to go back?
    just4palestine_s: yes
    just4palestine_s: i hope it
    just4palestine_s: i love palestine so much
    G: what do you have there?? Family or land or house in Palestine?
    just4palestine_s: all of these
    just4palestine_s: palestine is my country
    just4palestine_s: my heart
    G: do you have any papers that prove that you have a house and a land in palestine?
    just4palestine_s: yes
    just4palestine_s: i have
    G: where is your land? in which town?
    just4palestine_s: nablus
    just4palestine_s: jabal al_nar
    just4palestine_s: loop
    just4palestine_s: ....
    G: who lives in your house or land?
    just4palestine_s: the rest of my family
    G: why did you leave?
    just4palestine_s: 95% from my family
    just4palestine_s: because war with jewish
    just4palestine_s: i want aske u a quistion
    just4palestine_s: question
    G: yes please
    just4palestine_s: u with palestinian or jewish
    i want independen answer
    just4palestine_s: i will dont angry from u r answer
    G: I'm with both actually...I want everyone to live in peace and not fight
    just4palestine_s: u have white heart
    just4palestine_s: but jewish not like u
    just4palestine_s: loop
    G: I know many Jews that would want peace...
    G: more than I know arabs
    jeanne_letoile: and I know alot of arabs and jews
    just4palestine_s: he want peace because he want live in land not to him
    he want take people land
    just4palestine_s: to live on it
    just4palestine_s: paletine not for him
    just4palestine_s: he dont have any thing in palestine
    G: but Mohammed..King Solomon and King David and Moses and Jesus they were all jews and lived in Palestine
    just4palestine_s: but him not from palestine in fact
    G: well they came from Egypt Moses came from Egypt than you want jews to live in Egypt?
    just4palestine_s: no
    just4palestine_s: i want jews live in his land
    just4palestine_s: not in my land and take it
    G: Jews lived in Medina with Prophet Mohammed? you want them to go back there?
    just4palestine_s: where madina ?.
    jeanne_letoile: Medina in Saudi Arabia near Mecca
    just4palestine_s: yes
    just4palestine_s: but he can do any thing in madina
    just4palestine_s: he cant do any thing in madina
    just4palestine_s: *
    G: do you want Jews to go to Medina or Egypt?? Jews come from Abraham (Ibrahim) Ibrahim came from Iraq you want them to go to Iraq?
    just4palestine_s: this information wrong
    just4palestine_s: jews not from any arabian land
    just4palestine_s: he from north urope
    just4palestine_s: sfyate
    just4palestine_s: sofyat united
    just4palestine_s: loop
    G: Arabs are from Saudi Arabia...it is Umar Bin Khatab who occupied Palistine and brought the arabs with him...before Jerusalem was christian and jew
    just4palestine_s: palestine not christian or jews
    G: do you know Sulaiman?
    just4palestine_s: palestine arabian land and will stay arabian land
    just4palestine_s: whom sulaiman u mean ?
    G: King Suliaman
    just4palestine_s: no
    G: King Sulaiman who talks with Jin and birds and had a great army
    just4palestine_s: yes
    just4palestine_s: i know
    just4palestine_s: what about him
    G: was he arab?
    just4palestine_s: yes

    There you go...King Sulaiman (Solomon) was arab...and you still say we shouldn't nuke the middle east?

  36. Api - actually, have you heard of Palestinian Millitants and former Israeli IDF soldiers meeting in secret? There were not enough details on the article I read, but it was an interesting read.

    Also - there are "jewish only" neighborhoods both in Israel Proper and Greater Israel.

    Can you also tell us if Arabs are allowed to serve in the Israeli Army?

    And bacon - to you - lmao - yeah I saw that update.

    As to your question on other westernized countries - doesn't matter - we are talking about how Israel treats its non-jewish citizens.

    Please don't forget to tell me how much Arabs love living in Israel ;)

  37. I hate anti-Semitism. It’s just the same, “You’re different than me, so I hate you” nonsense that one sees with homophobia, racism and sexism. People should be judged as individuals, not judged based upon a group to which they belong.

    That said, I do think there’s an important distinction between criticizing Israel and being anti-Semitic. Personally, I know that I disapprove (sometimes strongly) of some of Israel’s actions. However, when making criticisms, one must always criticize the policy, rather than the people and their religion. The citizens and the government policies are distinct, just like Americans in general shouldn’t be blamed for George Bush’s wrongheaded and destructive policies.

  38. Pimpette, he said that they can't serve in the army. Druze can though. If I was Israel I wouldn't let Muslim Arabs fight for the IDf, but that is me.

    Frances, curious, what would you do if you were Israel?

  39. If I were Israel--and remember this is an ideal world we're talking about--I would return to the borders created by the UN. Any territory acquired subsequently, including as the spoils of war, would be relinquished. If a fence is to be erected, I would erect it precisely along the original UN-created borders, no more and no less.

  40. I can't agree with you Frances. Israel has evolved. Are you talking about the Jewish partition line? That just will never happen, you might as well tell Jews to commit suicide.

    Since we live in a real world, what would you do?

  41. I stay out of the Israel/Palestine thing basically as neither party has clean hands.

  42. Beep Beep, nobody anywhere has their hands clean when it comes to borders and country formation and beginnings.
    But Israel sure seems to be on the Atheist Left hit list.

    And it isn't a 50-50 thing either. I'd say from my biased (not really) position that Israel is 85% right and 15% wrong.

  43. " If an average Joe Israeli and an average Joe Palistinian meet on the street how would they both treat each other? "

    IN my experience it entirely depends on WHERE they encounter one another. If in Israel, chances are nothing would happen. IN PA territories the Israeli can expect to have stones thrown at them, or to be beaten.

  44. "That said, I do think there’s an important distinction between criticizing Israel and being anti-Semitic."

    There ABSOULTELY is a difference. But stay in this debate long enough and you'll see the more often than not, the loudest "We hate Israel" posters are also raging bigots, who then play the "criticism is not bigotry" card to try to cover it up.

    " Personally, I know that I disapprove (sometimes strongly) of some of Israel’s actions."

    As do I. There seems to be some mental disconnect with the pro palestinian camp that automatically believes that support of Israel is equal to excusing everything that it does. NOT true.

    "However, when making criticisms, one must always criticize the policy, rather than the people and their religion."

    Which you notice is NOT what happens. Look at what Alexgator says. he's not rallying against a corrupt government, he's condeming a nation of people. He's a bigot.

    "The citizens and the government policies are distinct, just like Americans in general shouldn’t be blamed for George Bush’s wrongheaded and destructive policies. "

    Which even the most ardent anti-israel poster would agree with, then make excuses as to why it doesn't apply to them.

  45. "I stay out of the Israel/Palestine thing basically as neither party has clean hands. "

    Painfully true. The same is true for all groups of people everywhere.

  46. Apikoros baal korchoApril 20, 2006 1:06 PM

    As I stated clearly, I wasn't trying to make things look pretty that aren't. There are Jewish-only neighborhoods in Israel just as there are white-only and black-only neighborhoods in the United States. Nobody said that Israel is a country without flaws. However, anti-Semites who hide under the cloak of anti-Zionism will point only to the flaws and nothing else while ignoring flaws in Arab lands.

    Yes, neither side is with clean hands. In most conflicts, that is usually the case.

  47. "However, anti-Semites who hide under the cloak of anti-Zionism will point only to the flaws and nothing else while ignoring flaws in Arab lands."

    Like, for example, the fact that hundreds of thousands of jews were expelled from the surrounding Muslim/Arab countries when Israel was founded. And that they have offered no aid to the Palestinian "refugees".

    But treating Jews the way they claim it is so wrong to treat the Palestinians is okay.

    Given this, the claims of anti-zionism are are transparently false.

  48. api, the difference is that while there are white only and black only neighborhoods (which is rarely the case these days) in the states - they are not "legally" nor are they "government endorsed" black only/white only neighborhoods.

    My point is that it is "illegal" within some neighborhoods in Israel for someone who is not jewish or married to someone jewish to live.

    I am not denying that Arab countries have flaws. I admit that Arab countries have trifold more flaws than Israel. However, the Arab states do not model themselves on the westernized countries, nor do they even try to appear to be democratic countries. I won't say Israel here, I will say that most Israel supporters keep bringing up what a secular state it is and how it is such a democracy. Another point being that it doesn't matter how unlike it's neighbors Israel is - I mean just because the neighbor jumps off the top of the Sears Tower and Israel jumps off the first floor of the Sears tower - well - you get it.

    The fact is that Israel is only a democracy right now because it can be, and still, it is not a model democracy, as has been pointed out here.

  49. Nobody Pimpette is claiming that Israel is Canada, the USA, or Germany.

    Israel is doing what it has to do. Israel has religious areas. Big deal. Why does this bother you? It doesn't bother me.

  50. There it is. Religion. It's the fucking cancer. But here is a question? what if Israel was offered all those billions of dollars of money by arab states to withdraw to 1967, with the full promise to safe guard the borders and them to kill off the terrorists before the Israelis. Would Israel and you yourrself AJ would agree?

  51. If Israel was guaranteed peace by the Arabs for withdrawing, they should pay the whole tab, in fact if I were Israel, I'd pay double.

    But it won't happen. It is calleda fairy tale.

  52. What's my problem with the Jewish neighborhoods? It goes to show that Israel is a religious state - or - at the minimum a state that endorses ONE particular religion - and my blonde mind is mixing up all of these little debates - lol.

  53. Yes Pimpette, Israel is a Jewish majority state. You learn something new every day.
    Yes Israel favors Jews.
    There I said it. And I have no problem with that.

  54. AJ, In 21st Century, a state which favours one ethnicity over the other, creating of some sort an exclusive club applicable? In that case do you favour a black state, a white state, arab state, jew state, yellow state. The world would be divided and you have done nothing but feed the flames of racism? Or do you have another intake on the matter?

  55. Right now based on where Israel is located, surrounded by Muslim majority states frothing at the mouth wanting to destroy Israel, a Jewish majority at this time is a must. That is reality.
    As time goes on and people realize that religion is nonsense, then Israel can evolve.
    It is a matter of survival right now.
    Remember, the purpose for Israel to me is as a safe haven for Jews any where in the world to go to if anti-semitism rises up anywhere.

  56. I can't agree with you Frances. Israel has evolved. Are you talking about the Jewish partition line? That just will never happen, you might as well tell Jews to commit suicide.

    Since we live in a real world, what would you do?

    I would definitely continue dismantling settlements. In my opinion, those settlements were among the worst ideas in the history of that country. It's going to be very painful to take them away, but they really shouldn't have been erected in the first place.

    Basically, I would promote policies that return Israel to its earlier borders. Perhaps returning to its original borders is now impractical, but steps in that direction certainly should be made. As a matter of philosophy, I think similarly to Yitzhak Rabin. I am diametrically opposed to people like Netanyahu. In my view, Netanyahu instigates problems, so I was glad his party ended up in 3rd place in the recent elections. I see him as an ideologue, and ideologues of all stripes only impede lasting peace.

  57. Bacon - again - there you go with the safe haven for jews!! Please, we're living in nuclear world these days and you just said that Israel is surrounded by frothing at the mouth Muslim states.

    Oh - and by the way - they are not FAVORING one religion - they are ENDORSING one religion. Separation of church and state is not a reality in Israel.

  58. The "church" is separated in Israel from the state for Jews as much as it is the USA if you take Christians into consideration.

  59. yeah,.... I dunno the %s or how I would attribute them if I had to, but I reserve the right to criticise all governments, whether they are christian, jewish, islamic or hindu :)

  60. The..err Pimpette has a point there. With Iran at the door step it quite odd for a jew to consider Israel a safe haven. I would recommend Sweden or something like that. Then again the concept should be endorsed.

  61. GLO, there are safer places on the planet at the moment, but that isn't the point. The 3000 Jews who left France recently most likely wouldn't have been able to go any where but Israel without a long wait, and they probably feel safer now in Israel than France.

  62. Ummmmmmmmmm, a lot of jews that left France last year went to the US and to Canada as well. Don't forget that their was a big Israeli push to have these Jews in France leave.

    Israel exists now, so whether it is a "safe" place or not does not really matter, but for you to keep harpin on "safe haven" is really inapproprite. Maybe I would feel better if you harped on "it should be" a safe haven. You can try it and we'll see how I do with that ;)

  63. Again Pimpette you are missing the point. Some Jews may not have options to go to the US or Canada quickly if at all. Israel provides the option to quickly take a persecuted Jew from harms way. Especially if those numbers became very large anywhere.
    I also contest that the reason why countries such as Iran don't openly torchure their Jewish population may have something to do with worries of repercusions from Israel or the USA.