January 2, 2007

THE INTERNET WILL BE THE DEATH OF YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISM

Religious Fundamentalists (those who believe the earth is young and evolution is crap) beware. The internet is your enemy. You may not have realized this before, or maybe you still haven't, but facts are not your friend either.

Do yourself a favor Fundies, and throw your computer away. Get your kids away from the computer too, or they may turn into Godless infidels. And guess who is most responsible for turning religious fence sitters into devout Agnostics? Who is responsible for those who went from not asking questions, to those who are all of a sudden curious about Fundamental beliefs they used to believe were gospel? It isn't Richard Dawkins and it isn't Sam Harris either. Fence sitters don't usually get to their wonderful material.
No, it is the Fundies who have the audacity to confront Atheists, scientists, Agnostics, etc. who are to blame.

Fundies have to understand that your religious spew and groundless faith only works when you have an audience of faithful listeners. When they go out of their realm, they are like a chicken walking into the mouth of a hungry crocodile. They don't have a chance.

The big problem is they want to debate things like evolution and the age of the earth with no facts behind you. Their answers may be impressive to fellow Fundies when there are nothing but Fundies around, but they get squashed by a bug when you deal with anyone who doesn't deny reality.


They are tiresome with the same old arguments. "Evolution is only a theory." As soon as I see this, I realize that the person stating it, has no real idea about evolution or science, and doesn't want to understand it either.

So why do Atheists like me bother with confrontational Fundies? The answer is simple: I do it for the lurkers.

I realize I will most likely not change the uneducated opinion of a Fundy by supporting my arguments with up to date links from real science sites (they don't bother clicking the links usually). I am going to change the opinion of the odd lurker, though.

When a Fundy says there is no proof for evolution, and I respond with 10 links, I know that in many cases, I will make a difference with some lurkers. Facts are facts. Fundies arguing that the earth is young for example, might as well state the earth is made of chocolate. They inevitably make themselves look like baseless fools.

It is apparent, they have nothing but faith. Yet they want to pretend that they have science behind them. They constantly move the goal posts during "debates" too by avoiding questions, and changing their assertions. I remember one "debate" recently where the Fundy went from stating that God is easily provable, to God is easily provable on a spiritual level (WTF?), when I asked for the easy proof.

Youtube is also making a difference too. There is a phenomenal amount of creative people out there who, in an intelligent manner, mock the ridiculous claims made by Fundamentalists.

Todays children have too many facts in front of them. And even if they had no intention of asking questions, they are seeing the real replies to the silly denials and ludicrous assertions that Fundies are spewing.

I can see Fundamental Christians looking for a way to ban a tremendous amount of the internet from their households....Saudi Arabia does this.

I find that Fundies don't like it when I state the following in a "debate":

1. There is no contemporary historical evidence Jesus ever existed. (Josephus was not contemporary) Can I have your best piece of evidence?

2. There is no historical evidence the Exodus happened. Forget the Hyksos, I'm talking about what the OT states.

3. Find me one scientific study that refutes or contradicts evolution. If evolution were false, there would be many, but you can't find one piece for me.

4. There is no evidence that there was a worldwide Great Flood. Local floods, yes, but not a worldwide one. Oh yeah, the idea of the Ark story is embarrassing to believe.

5. If the earth was young, why can't a Fundy scientist come up with a way to prove it?


The best a Fundy can do is try to poke holes in evolution theory. And that is when it gets good, because that is when the links come out and the lurkers get a free education:)

And when overwhelmed by evidence the young earth creationist will finally concede that any contradiction between science and the literal word of the bible can easily be explained. From a recent discussion on a Fundy blog:



“Kerwin, if you believe in a trickster God, I can’t argue with you. “ The Atheist Jew


If this below passage describes a trickster God then I do believe in a trickster God.

Deuteronomy 13(NIV)

“1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.”

Comment by Kerwin — thep31e12beFri, 29 Dec 2006 03:07:15

Yep, the word of God clearly states that he throws curve balls, like dinosaur bones and an earth that appears, to every reputable geologist on this planet, to be 4.5 billion years old, just to test ones faith in HIM.


If you believe scientists, you don't love God as much as you should.

So basically all the evidence in the world means nothing to a devout Fundy.

Fundies will believe that woman came from Adam's rib (with zero evidence such a thing could happen outside the bible), but can't buy into evolution (with the mounds and mounds of evidence that evolution happens).

Fundies so far have avoided major debates with large audiences. I think the big Fundy guns realize they have nothing. I'd love to see Ann Coulter in an honest debate about evolution with Richard Dawkins.
Unfortunately, it will never happen. Dawkins would make her look like a monkey.


Oh, I found another very funny site, especially if you want first hand Advice From God.

39 comments:

  1. Ann Coulter is just a political shill. I don't think she really believes in the literalness of the bible. I think she may consider herself to be a christian only in so much that she hates muslims and needs some way to contrast herself from them. In reality, any religious fundamentalist appears very similar to any other religious fundamentalist. The specifics may not be the same, but the mindset is extremely similar.

    That is - "Our motives are pure and inncocent and above reproach and everyone else is evil" - seems to be the commonality.

    Someone like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell seem not very different to me than any islamic, hindu, or other religious fundamentalist. They believe that only their religion as they express it, has the monopoly on truth. They are like dangerous children arguing about whose invisible friend is more real.

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  2. "I realize I will most likely not change the uneducated opinion of a Fundy by supporting my arguments with up to date links from real science sites (they don't bother clicking the links usually). I am going to change the opinion of the odd lurker, though."

    Put more generally, this is why it's important to respond reasonably in a public discussion even when your opponent is unreasonable. Even with people who don't check the links, the impression you make can make a difference.

    "There is no contemporary historical evidence Jesus ever existed. (Josephus was not contemporary) Can I have your best piece of evidence?"

    I'm still of the opinion that there was a real person behind the stories of Jesus. The existence of Paul is historically documented, and he claimed to have contact with people who claimed to have contact with Jesus. It doesn't make much sense to me that they would have invented a leader for their movement rather than making a messiah of an actual leader they followed. Also, the stories about Jesus present a fairly consistent personality, as I discussed on my blog.

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  3. . . . in which I refute BEAJ's cynical, disgusting, Jesus-denying, Jew theories:

    1. Jesus came in . . . err, came to me last night and told me he existed.

    2. 1960 movie. Starring Paul Newman. Directed by Preminger. Ain't y'all got old movies in Canada???

    3. - 2+2=4
    - "Evolution" has 4 syllables
    - 2+3=4 is FALSE.
    - Therefore, Evolution is FALSE.

    4. You pose no question here, BEAJ. But you're a Jew and you're wrong anyway.

    5. The Earth is like a beautiful woman. She won't admit her true age.

    Ok, there you go, Mr. Jew Smarty-Pants. Any snappy replies to MY answers? Huh? HUH???

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  4. Hey Beep, you took a few weeks off it seems from the blogosphere, good to see you back. I don't know what Coulter believes, you may be right....but she didn't have to do the evolution is garbage chapters in her book if her only belief is that Islam is evil.

    Gary, my theory is that Paul wasn't the most sane people around and that he just had a vision of a Messiah....he used many of the stories that were around at the time, and he was believed. Does it make sense that Joe Smith make stuff up, or that L. Ron Hubbard make stuff up?

    Also, Paul supposedly never spoke of Jesus as if he were a person who lived on earth.....this idea evolved.

    The fact that Jesus was supposedly a miracle man and not one of 42 historians who were alive between 1 to 37 AD did not write one single word about him, makes me believe he didn't exist.

    Again, there is as much historical evidence Jesus existed as there is the ghost that Joe Smith envisioned in a dream.

    I'll check your discussion.

    Read this.

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  5. Mike,
    1. I am not talking about current contemporary proof, but historical contemporary proof.....sheesh.

    2. I am not talking about the Exodus to the the state of Israel in the 20th Century. I think you are confusing this with the proof in the movie the 10 Commandments with Charlton Heston.

    3. I'm glad Fundies don't use that exact example, because it does make sense to me and I'd have a hard time refuting it. I'm sure Dawkins might be able to get around it because he is much more versed on evolution theory than me.

    4. You know that us Jews use deception. See I made it appear to the untrained (non anti-semitic) eye that it was a question when it wasn't....you caught me.

    5. She is also suffering from hot flashes. Her cap is melting.

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  6. BEAJ, I'll respond here to the reply you made on my blog (which people can find from my earlier comment if they're interested), since this is the livelier place.

    I've never read the Book of Mormon, so I can't comment on how "real" a characterization one might draw of Moroni. I wouldn't really expect him to be a well-rounded personality. Hercules is a more interesting point of comparison; in fact, I was thinking of that comparison before I ever saw your reply. (Great minds think alike.) Hercules could be based on a real strongman, but the case is much weaker than for Jesus, since the stories don't have any plausible links, even indirect ones, to historical people.

    The article which you suggested I look at is an interesting one -- also a long one, so I skipped down to the part about Jesus. It talks briefly about the "Jesus movements." If I knew more about these, that might either increase or decrease the credence I give to a historical person behind the Biblical Jesus. Another question is how well documented the Peter-Paul disputes and the epistles of Peter are.

    But I'm not a Biblical scholar, and it wouldn't make any great difference in my life whether the Biblical Jesus is based on a single person or an idealized figure. The discussion intrigues me, but I'm not sure it intrigues me enough to do the necessary digging.

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  7. Gary, I'm 45, for the first 42 years of my life I assumed a historical Jesus and I assumed the Exodus. Both of these topics had no play on my Atheism though.

    When Mel Gibson started talking about doing the Passion movie, I started looking into what Jesus looked like....this investigation, got me then finding links doubting Jesus' historical existence. And since then, I haven't been able to find one thing that makes me believe Jesus existed.

    My Exodus investigations happened shortly thereafter.

    The Ark story was like the tooth fairy....I grew out of it when I was able to figure out that adults made stuff up.

    The fact that the Exodus and a historical Jesus have no historical evidence associated with them doesn't make me more of an Atheist....it just shows to me that the bibles are no better than Dr. Seuss books if you are looking for non fiction.

    Read the Bidstrup article when you have time. And watch the South Park episode on Mormons...I saw it yesterday for the 5th time.

    The more you dig for a historical Jesus, if you dig, the more you will come up empty.

    Here is a link to the South Park episode. Funny as hell.

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  8. There is a phenomenal amount of creative people out there who, in an intelligent manner, mock the ridiculous claims made by Fundamentalists.

    As a lurker, I've appreciated the many links and read them with an open mind. I don't, however, feel that mocking in any manner is conducive to good debate, and question if it has much to do with intelligence.

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  9. Tessa, I was struggling with that line when I wrote it last night. I think it is natural to mock the idea of the Ark story, however, generally, old earth abiogenesisers like me, don't mock as a rule. We generally give facts and then wind up mocking out of frustration sometimes.

    I stand corrected.

    But I'd like to think a good sense of humor is associated with a higher IQ.

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  10. BEAJ-

    1. I am not talking about current contemporary proof, but historical contemporary proof.....sheesh.

    I was unclear. I meant that as I lounged in bed as a teenager in AD 21, The Lord came to me and told me about a carpenter who had a way with words. Then the carpenter showed up, said something about sparrows and casting stones and left.

    I think it was Jeezie. He had a well-trimmed beard and was accompanied by a hot-looking local ho'.

    2. I am not talking about the Exodus to the the state of Israel in the 20th Century. I think you are confusing this with the proof in the movie the 10 Commandments with Charlton Heston.

    Nah. That's how I know God, Moses, Burning Bushes and Charlton Heston's acting career are real. Eva Marie Saint wasn't in 10 Commandments.

    Or was she?

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  11. 1. Did he have blond wavey hair with fair skin and did he stand 6 foot 2? Because if he didn't, then he wasn't Jesus.

    2. Eva Marie is still working at 82. Wow. No, she wasn't in the 10 Commandments, though she could have been Charlton Heston's fluffer.

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  12. But I'd like to think a good sense of humor is associated with a higher IQ.

    I agree with you, and my intent was not to attempt to correct you. I have respect for how you respond to comments or I wouldn't read your blog. My real intent was to express that the word 'mock' just adds insult to injury to my 'wittle feelings'. I have enough to deal with here to unlearn. Just don't like to envision being mocked while I'm at it. I can only take so much pain at one time, ya know.;P

    I'm not certain if you would be surprised to know how many people who you think are falsely indoctrinated with various forms of religion actually fail to believe what they were taught. They are simply afraid 'not' to believe it. I think common sense tries to surface more often than they care for and they simply hide from it as long as possible.

    C.S. Lewis was always one of my favorite 'theologians'. I read the story of his conversion to christianity. He apparently had a conversation with Tolkien and Dyson. Tolkien argued that even the truth (God) might be presented through myth. Dyson more or less argued that christianity provides some outside soothing of the inner human struggle.

    Several days later, Lewis was riding in a motorcycle sidecar to the zoo with his brother. His words were..."When we set out I did not believe that Jesus is the Son of God and when we reached the zoo I did." Those are the very words of his that ruin all his other thoughts for me. Seems to me that he just 'decided' to believe it, not that he was convinced by any particular facts.

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  13. Tessa, I just like presenting facts. I don't have a problem with people who believe in God, I have a problem with people who deny reality and fact. Denying reality can lead to some ugly things. I think we are hardwired to believe in something greater and this happened because of social evolution.
    Humans have the ability to fantasize, invent, and imagine. Great things have come out of this ability, but so has some really weird Gods.

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  14. "The fact that Jesus was supposedly a miracle man and not one of 42 historians who were alive between 1 to 37 AD did not write one single word about him, makes me believe he didn't exist."____But suppose he was not a miracle worker, but just one of many wandering preachers who were around in Palestine at the time. Suppose he was more popular than some and attracted crowds. In the edgy atmosphere of the Roman occupation, that is quite enough to get him arrested and crucified. I see nothing unlikely in the hisorical existence of Jesus, and some of his sayings and parables are quoted in more than one independent source. The cult of him as a supernatural being or a sacrificial god came later.

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  15. Don, what you say is a possibility, but it still holds true that there is no contemporary historical evidence that Jesus ever existed.
    Apparently there were many people who thought of as being Messiahs at the time. Perhaps many preaching an afterlife and goodwill to mankind. But these ideas were around, so were myths that were usurped in the Jesus story over time.
    Read the bidstrup link I provided earlier in the comment thread if you have time.
    As far as his quotes go, there are no reputable sources that verify a man named Jesus said anything.
    The bible is not a history book.

    There is no evidence that leads me to believe that Jesus existed, and in fact nothing that contradicts my theory that Paul made the story up and that the story was refined and changed over the next 200-300 years.

    Also, another fact that came out last year. Romans didn't start crucifying as a rule until around 200 AD, around the time most of the Gospel probably was written.
    Around 35 AD, they usually impailed their victims.

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  16. Look what is happening now in Irsael? Why do you think the Arabs haven't wiped them out??? That is because God is looking after them. Have you ever read the Bible, the King James Bible? I think not, if you think that me came from apes?????? maybe you did but I don't think I did. God will not be mocked..... if I were you I would stop this blog.....I wonder what your Grandparents would think of this???? Not to much....
    I believe in God and salvation and life in Heaven after death. What do you believe in? Where are you going after death? I know, do YOU? You mention 200 AB, What was before that? BC - before Christ??

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  17. Anon : Did God look after the Jews during the Holocaust too?

    Evolution is fact. The fact you deny it means you aren't very realistic and your belief that the bible is literal is proof of that.

    What does it matter what my grandparents thought of this blog? None of them were ever on the internet. I think my grandparents would be proud of the fact that I am my own person and that I have no problem exposing the truth.

    Date of BC and AD are man made. Prior to that there was a Roman and Egyptian calendar. The Jewish calendar doesn't acknowledge AD or BC. AD and BC is laughable if you are using it as proof of Jesus.

    I'm going the same place you are when I die. Worm food.
    I believe that if I do my best to leave the world a more educated place, I will have led a satisfying life. You, on the other hand live a lie, and try to spread your ridiculous beliefs on others with nothing but a book written by man to control man. You might as well be quoting from the Cat in the Hat.

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  18. It's been a long time since I considered the Exodus historical, at least in any more than the general sense that the Hebrews may have been descended from migrants from Egypt.

    Realizing this can be a relief. The book of Joshua describes horrible acts of mass murder by the Hebrews; at least two cities, Jericho and Ai, were slaughtered down to the last child, with God's approval. Fortunately, these are almost certainly fictitious.

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  19. And, let's not forget, there would be measurable quantities of such stuff as Silicon-32 on a young Earth.

    The radioisotope decay ratios point to a MONSTROUSLY old Earth ...

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  20. BEAJ,

    I don’t know how you find the time or energy and have the patients, (usually), to debate these boneheads, but keep it up; I know that I am not the only one who appreciates it.

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  21. Ah, yes, the whisper of old ghosts...
    I found out recently, that 'Divine Wind' Dembski helped Coulter w/her book, 'Godless: the religion of Liberalism'. He then denied culpability for the copious amount of errors contained w/in.
    Also, another fact that came out last year. Romans didn't start crucifying as a rule until around 200 AD, around the time most of the Gospel probably was written.
    Or the fact that the Roman authorities went after any tomb robbers. Bigtime. But noone went after the alleged robbing of Joe of A's tomb.
    How odd.

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  22. Krystalline Apostate wrote: "Romans didn't start crucifying as a rule until around 200 AD, around the time most of the Gospel probably was written."

    Are you sure of that? This page indicates that crucifixion was common as early as the first century. Spartacus's followers were crucified en masse, and that happened even earlier.

    Searching the Web for "crucifixion," incidentally, is a tricky job, because you'll get overwhelming amounts of Christian material with little history. I like to use Vivisimo for such searches.

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  23. Gary, KA was quoting me. Let me just say that I saw this article last year,it took me a while to search for it. I should have made it clear that I am talking crucifixion by a cross.

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  24. "quoting from the Cat in the Hat." As you may recal I am one of the faithfull believers. But that is serious funny. Thanks for the laugh BEAJ.

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  25. "Fundies arguing that the earth is young for example, might as well state the earth is made of chocolate."

    LOL, so true!!!

    When it comes right down to it, the evidence is overwhelming, so I welcome the opportunity to present serious science and apologist pot-shots side by side to those who are wondering.

    Regarding the "trickster God," we have a similar thing in Mormonism -- it is commonly believed that Satan plants false evidence to lead people astray. As you say, it's difficult to argue with someone who would believe such a thing, but for those who are willing to believe in solid objective evidence, it is clear that the young Earthers have none...

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  26. hanson:
    it is commonly believed that Satan plants false evidence to lead people astray.
    That argument dates back to Justin Martyr, who claimed that the 'debbil' knew of said prophecies, & planted the evidence to catch more souls.

    gary:
    As BEAJ points out, I was quoting him.
    I usually bolden something I'm quoting from someone else. It's just my style (I'd use blockquotes, but blogger doesn't allow those).

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  27. BEAJ:
    Like the article. Especially like how they spelled it: 'crucifiction'. Hmmm...wonder what Carrier says about it?

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  28. As chromosomal/mitochondrial DNA
    paleontological studies become more sophisticated, the fossil 'gaps' are being filled.
    Where in the bible does it state that logical evidence should be denied? As for Jericho, the work of William G. Dever and other archeologists find that Jericho had lain in ruins for two centuries prior to the time of
    Joshua (McGath, above). Science
    seeks answers; if it is the bane
    of fundamentalists, they should review their own tenets and avoid
    attacking facts.

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  29. Hey Bacon!

    The Earth might not be made of chocolate, but on the island of Bohol in the Philippines where my wife comes from, there is a formation of hills called the Chocolate Hills.

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  30. I don't know if these sites help or not. I mean, I think YECs are mostly an isolated people, and tend to think mixing with heathens will make them spiral into a world of sinful godless apostasy.

    But about anonymous' message. First, proofreading is your friend. Second, we might say BC, but we also say AD (Anno Domini) though we don't speak Latin. And the politically correct expressions are CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era).

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  31. But... the Fact that the Earth is made of chocolate gives my life such meaning!

    ;-)

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  32. I like the idea that the Mideast and Europe were flooded 7,500 to 8,000 years ago. However that event is 3,000+ years to early to be the one that is described in Genesis. Some people believe that the memory could have been retained and transfered for all of that time.

    Did Noah build an Ark 8,000 years ago instead of 4,000+ years ago?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061204-tsunami-israel.html

    http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news165.htm

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  33. Anon with the links. I saw that story. And I have no doubt there were many localized floods and disasters, but the story of the Ark states mankind was wiped out. We know the Aboriginals were in Africa 20,000 or is it 40,000 years ago....and Noah didn't find a couple of platypus', koalas and kangaroos to save from the Tsunamis.
    The flood story was believable because most people experienced floods and natural disasters, and I'm sure that big ones were talked about for generations.

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  34. One minor quibble Bacon, you surely meant Australia.

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  35. Yep...I made a mistake. I meant Australia. Since I wasn't quoting God's bible, it is possible for a mere human like me to make mistakes.

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  36. anonymous:
    Some people believe that the memory could have been retained and transfered for all of that time.
    Genetic aka racial memory. That's still considered a fringe theory. Until more data supports that, jury's still out.

    BEAJ:
    We know the Aboriginals were in Africa 20,000 or is it 40,000 years ago....and Noah didn't find a couple of platypus', koalas and kangaroos to save from the Tsunamis.
    Well, my 'sunday sermon' tomorrow will actually touch a bit on this, as I've actually found an 'atheistic' religion that claims it has figured out what actually DID occur, & how Noah got all those critters onto the ark.
    Stay tuned.

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  37. 1. Of course there was a flood. Around 10,000 years ago Ice Age ended, ocean level rised by hundreds of meters, ancient coastal civilizations were flooded. 5-6 t.y.a. Shumerians already had tables of data to predict eclipses and advanced math centered around celestial movements. So either they had preserved some ancient knowledge, or were visited and tought by aliens.
    2. Why do one needs GOD in order to be "GOOD"?
    3. What's to say GOD didn't created the Universe 5677 years ago already with all its Past (and maybe the Future as well)? IOW, how do you know you really existed yesterday and not merely have memories of it? (except for the Occama principle) - my suspicion is, you don't.

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  38. I guess the debate will go on a long time, but still after millenniums the atheists and evolutionists still live in a thiest world where it is believed that the earth is young. That is the observable physical evidence that athiesm is nonsense because atheists have never been able to make our world an athiest world.
    Those who believe in God and have simple faith still control the planet. Yep, we sure do.

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  39. Only 50% of those who believe in God are still foolish enough to disregard scientific evidence on the age of the earth.
    The age of the earth is fact and has nothing to do with whether God exists or not.
    There is no debate, unless you want to say that looking at a dog and believing it is a cat and arguing that the cat is a dog is a debate.

    There are a lot more Atheists today than 50 years ago or even 100 years ago....and percentages are rising too.

    Science is not a majority anyway. That is like saying that prior to Galileo, the belief that the sun revolved around the earth was fact because it was the majority view.

    Keep deluding yourself, you obviously need to.

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