If John Tory doesn't drop the proposal to fund religious schools with tax dollars very soon, he might as well drop out of the election for Ontario Premier.
There is no spin that will satisfy the thinking Ontario voter on this one. Here are the spins put on by Conservative die-hards:
Catholic schools get funded so to be "fair" all religious schools should be funded
The reason that Catholic schools are funded is because of a deal done by the founders of our country. It has nothing to do with fairness, but is in fact a political deal that I imagine could only get changed if it came down to a vote by the people. The fairness angle was already defeated by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1994. H/T The Fifth Column
Public funding of anything religious is just plain ridiculous. Where would it stop? Mormonism? Scientology? The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Evolution is just a theory, there is nothing wrong with funding schools that teach alternative theories as long as those theories aren't taught in science class
"Evolutionary biology is a strong and vigorous field of science. A theoretical framework that encompasses several basic mechanisms is consistent with the patterns seen in nature; and there is abundant evidence demonstrating the action of these mechanisms as well as their contributions to nature. Hence, evolution is both a theory and a set of established facts that the theory explains."
"For scientists, evolutionary theory deals with how evolution occurs, not whether it occurs — this is an important distinction lost upon creationists."
As far as "other theories" go, that is what church and home is for. There is no reason to fund the brainwashing of children. Parents have plenty of ways to brainwash their child without having schools do it for them. Religious history can be taught in school (I even found Henry the 8th's divorce case to be interesting). Religious dogma has no business in school.
By funding religious schools it will force those schools to follow the Ontario curriculum
There is plenty of leeway when it comes to following the Ontario curriculum and having loads of time to teach nonsense and intolerance as well. When did Catholics stop teaching kids that Jews killed Jesus in class? They still teach that condoms are bad and that gays are sinners don't they?
So they have to teach evolution in science class. That doesn't mean that they can't attempt to ridicule evolution in other classes (this is what churches and wilfully ignorant parents are for, not publicly funded schools).
There are only 53,000 students who are in non-Catholic religious schools in Ontario today
Yes, that is today. But what about tomorrow? If a Jewish family, or Muslim family, or Baptist family, or Mormon family, etc. has a choice between a local public school or a local school that is the same as their household religion, how are those numbers not going to explode? Build it and they will come. When Bill Davis took a step back into the middle ages and funded Catholic high schools in 1985, more schools were built very quickly and filled. This will create a new Ontario, one that embraces segregation and intolerance.
Wouldn't you rather Muslims, for example, have to follow the Ontario curriculum than do their own thing in privately funded schools?
Again, has I explained above, by publicly funding Muslim schools, more Muslim, if not the majority of Muslims in Ontario, will wind up going to Muslim schools. This is a recipe for disaster. Here is a post at Beaman's World that illustrates what the expected outcome will be. Yes, homegrown terrorism in Britain has been funded by the public.
Collectively, Muslims tend to be very passive when it comes to radical leadership. This opens the door for the bad guys to infiltrate and take over. We don't need any bad ass Muslim teens in Ontario who have been brainwashed by Taleban trained leaders who preach hatred of the West.
There are 33 Muslim schools in Ontario right now. Do we want 250 of them that are completely full?
This will create competition and competition will create better teachers
No, this isn't about competition that will create better education. The only competition here is for parents to decide if they want their child to be taught religious dogma and superstitions during part of the school day while being segregated from children with other beliefs, or if they want their child to be taught facts and real theories (ones that can be falsified).
Ontario isn't Turkey or the USA. Stockwell Day's nonsensical beliefs humiliated the Conservatives previously. The majority of Ontarians can see through this bs proposal made by Tory, at least the Ontarians who came through the public system can.
If I had my way, I would take away funding from Catholic schools (at least have a vote for it). And I wouldn't even allow any religious school to have accredited status unless they followed the Ontario curriculum. And I wouldn't fund them a dime.
I don't see why parents, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, etc. need to brainwash their children in school. It is completely selfish. If they feel that strongly about their beliefs, take them to their place of worship as much as possible and teach their nonsense at home as well (sure, it is a form of child abuse, but what do you expect from insecure zealots). Most who attend post secondary school wind up in public colleges and universities anyway. Religious schools are just a way to segregate and control a child when they are too young to know better or make up their own mind.
As someone from the public school system in Ontario, here are my two cents on your points.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, it has everything to do with fairness. To hide behind a political agreement made 150 years ago when the context and situation was far different as justification for an unfair practice is wrong. Would you agree if the argument was this.. "racial segregation was an important concession in the founding of our nation and should be respected" Of course not, because times change and political agreements from 150 years ago should not be kept if they have become outdated and seen as wrong.
That being said, I also think they should begin pulling support from the Catholic school system rather than start supporting other schools.
Hi SO, yes, if the issue is just about fairness, then funding should be pulled from Catholic schools, but I'd rather have the status quo than additional funding for other religious schools.
ReplyDeleteBut it isn't really fairness at issue here. The fairness part was defeated by the Supreme Court.
This is blatant bs by Tory trying to sleaze support from the voters who have their kids in privately funded classes and their families, while ensuring that Catholic funding doesn't become questioned in the near future.
I don't want to have to vote against Tory, but this education proposal is a deal breaker for me. I really don't care what the rest of his platform is as long as he keeps this on the table.
I agree with SO. To hide behind a political agreement made 150 years ago is nothing short of trying to exploit a loophole. Either we accept a non-discriminatory multicultural society and apply fairness or we don't.
ReplyDeleteThe only way to stamp out religion in schools would be "to go French". In France, consequence of the French Revolution, religion is entirely banned from the institutions of the state. Religious instruction (including religious symbolism, clothing, head scarves, etc) is completely prohibited in state schools (I'm not sure about the status of privately funded schools).
For Ontario this would mean completely revoking that historical deal: forget about that; any politician suggesting that would be committing political suicide.
"Evolution is just a theory, there is nothing wrong with funding schools that teach alternative theories as long as those theories aren't taught in science class"
Schools that do feature religious education (RE) will invariably teach Genesis. Well, you can call it what you want but that's simply creationism. But as long as it's taught outside of science classrooms there is nothing that can be done about it, bar completely banning RE from all Ontario schools but that's hypothetical because of the historical deal.
"By funding religious schools it will force those schools to follow the Ontario curriculum"
Providing the education inspectorate does a thorough job that's exactly what would happen. Why would that be such a bad thing?
"Here is a post at Beaman's World that illustrates what the expected outcome will be
Yes, homegrown terrorism in Britain has been funded by the public."
The Beaman post has nothing to do with this issue. And "home-grown terrorism in Britain has been funded by the public" is the kind of baseless jingoistic nonsense for which you should by now be (in)famous. Bjay: it's pure perception on your part. The rise of Radical Islam in Britain (as elsewhere) has multiple causes.
"If I had my way, I would take away funding from Catholic schools (at least have a vote for it)."
Do you guys have referenda?
"I don't see why parents, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, etc. need to brainwash their children in school. It is completely selfish."
What you're saying is actually rather... selfish and borderline intolerant. I dislike religion as much as the next atheist/agnostic but people are completely entitled to their belief-systems (whatever they are) and to passing them on to their children. I'm sure you'll instil atheistic values in your children too.
"Religious schools are just a way to segregate and control a child when they are too young to know better or make up their own mind."
Here I rather agree with you but even this issue isn't all that clear-cut. Allow me to play the devil's advocate. By sheer coincidence last night's BBC 1 featured a message by Britain's Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks on the Jewish New Year. I've seen Sacks in action before and although this is a rather woolly thinker (that attribute comes with a typical soft-tone, husky manner of diction) you probably couldn't wish to meet a nicer and more tolerant person (religionist or not). The end of the program featured a rather exceptional Jewish school (King David in Birmingham) where, against all odds, almost half of students are Muslims (there are some Hindus as well). Well, as far as the teaching of tolerance and co-existence goes, this is a rather shining example of why faith-based schools needn't be segregationist at all: it really all depends on the approach of the school and its governors.
In British state-run high schools, there is no religious instruction but the children are definitely taught about religions. I don't see why not either: religions exist, so kids should be taught about what they are. My atheist daughter of 12 finds it rather interesting...
Thank you Gert, I was thinking the same thing about the 'brainwashing' comment. Its difficult to agree with someone when they decide to take potshots at your belief system.
ReplyDeleteBeaj: The Supreme Court, with all due respect, is wrong and being hypocritical. Their decision in 1994 was based on poor logic and since then (and before then too) court after court has overruled politicians and political agreements in order to provide fairness. For example, laws against same-sex marriage were ruled against because of 'fairness'. French language laws have been ruled against similarly.
Gert, see I have a choice in not voting for Tory, I don't vote at all, or I vote Lib or Green. Libs win, and the status quo stays the same, Green Party wants to eliminate Catholic funding but have no chance of winning. So fairness really is a non issue because I have a choice to vote for the status quo. If we are talking about a perfect world, there would be no Catholic schools at all.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing I won't vote for is more religious funding.
Again Gert, you are missing the point somewhat. By doing the funding bs, more and more children will enroll in these schools. The Ontario curriculum may take only 3 or 4 hours a day to follow, the rest of the day teachers are free to teach that gays are deviants, that Jews killed Jesus, that Allah wants the world to be Islamic, etc.
Homegrown terrorism is a concern. Islamic fundamentalists do like captive audiences to brainwash, and there won't be any non Muslims to rat out what the kids might be up to after school.
I am against Jewish schools too. Why not just have secular schools where Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. can hang out together?
When I'm talking brainwashing I am talking about taking a young child who isn't capable of making choices and forcing religion on them...not only at home and church but in schools on my tax dollars.
I don't have kids, and I'm not sure how to push atheist beliefs, since to be an atheist just means not believing in God or Gods. Yes, I push secularism. I don't find that pushing facts and real history is selfish of me.
SO, all religion is a form of brainwashing. Forget your religion for a sec. What do you think of a kid raised as a scientologist or as a Menonite? Are the kids not brainwashed by parents and elders?
The Supreme Court may be hypocritical but it still takes away this as being an issue of fairness.
If the Supreme Court were to rule correctly, it would say that public funding of Catholic schools is unconstitutional.
But for the sake of "fairness" I'm not about to vote to open up the flood gates here. No chance.
Fairness to me is that all children are taught under the exact same program. And if you are going to add religion into the mix, then all religions need to be talked about....it won't leave any time for math and English though.
Brainwashing described more eloquently. Good post too, on the same topic.
ReplyDeleteI was under the impression that the whole private school thing was about NOT paying these places any public money. I must just be insane, or something.
ReplyDeleteFundamentalism in a faraway land coupled with immigration & xenophobia here, with a dash of sensationalism and scientific misrepresentation in the media for good measure, that's what's destroying this country. Just look at the Reasonable Accommodation crap in Quebec.
Ruth, religion may be "life" for the religious, but that doesn't mean it deserves any public funding whatsoever. And it doesn't mean that religious education should be accredited either.
ReplyDeleteIt is "life" for Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, etc etc etc.
If God comes down or up or whatever and states that religious education should be funded, then I'll change my mind:)