April 4, 2006
PENN AND TELLER: THE BIBLE IS CRAPOLA
HERE IS A PENN AND TELLER VIDEO ON MIRACLES.
Courtesy of Yoism.org.
Warning: Fundies please don't watch this. It will make you very angry, and will magnify your hatred towards Atheists like me, and prove once again that Atheists are sent to this earth by the Devil.
Oh, and it contains foul language as well.
NOTE: A whole slew of Penn and Teller clips are available here. They are very easy to embed onto a blog. Thanks to everyone who linked me.
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Okay I'm not an atheist, and I'm not even technically a Jew, but that was absolutely hilarious.
ReplyDeleteCheers from Ottawa
It is nice to meet a fellow Canadian in the blogosphere. I didn't have time to see the whole clip. (I tend not to get my information from Las Vegas acts) If you were intending to scare me off as a Christian because of foul language or the fact that you insult the Bible you failed. My faith in Christ and therefore His word has lead me to see both of aunts healed of cancer, watched one time as my mother's broken foot was prayed for, the bones were moved back into place, and she got up off the couch and walked normally, etc., etc... I don't have time to go into all of the miracles I have seen or been apart of. The most important miracle was my salvation. You may not believe me and that's fine but I know that I have more credibility on this issue than a Las Vegas act.
ReplyDeletetik, as soon as you convert you are technically a Jew. I'm not sure if a converted Jew can become an Atheist Jew if he decides not to believe in God later on.
ReplyDeleteeje, I'll bet you don't get your information from scientists either. Miracles don't happen. Self prayer can work. Mind over matter. Nothing to do with God.
If you had a relative who lost a limb, would prayer help grow back the limb?
BTW, no evidence Jesus ever existed. None. Zero.
Okay not to hijack your post, because I think it stands on its own and is a great one!
ReplyDeleteBut….
As I understand it once one converts to Judaism, the same rules apply to him/her as do those who apply to someone born of a Jewish mother.
That is unless the conversion was done under false pretense, which is something I suppose a rabbi would have to determine, but don't quote me on that.
Otherwise, I'm guessing a Jew by choice, would also be considered in nonobservant or maybe a secular Jew, and that could well include being an atheist jew.
However, I suppose that's really neither here nor there in terms of your post.
I myself find nothing offensive about the post as a person in the process of converting, which would obviously seem to imply that I believe in God.
A good post is a good post and Penn and Teller's show hits the nail on the head in many ways, so I'm glad I was able to watch it.
I say, to Buddy above, great good for you if you have lots of personal miracles in your life, but if you know what you know, why do you feel a need to try to prove it here?
That stuff reeks of insecurity to me, but what do I know I'm just in misguided goy heading in the wrong direction, (I'm sure) in his opinion that is.
Anyhow, thanks again for the tremendously entertaining post!
"...watched one time as my mother's broken foot was prayed for, the bones were moved back into place, and she got up off the couch and walked normally..."
ReplyDeleteWhat, moved by themselves? You Christians get wackier every day.
Are these men saying that Charlton Heston did not part the Red Sea?
ReplyDeleteI am quite possibly Penn & Teller's biggest fan. Not too often you meet atheist libertarians who are proudly out of the closet (no, not a gay implication). Their show is one of the main reasons I have Showtime. Of course, for every 8 episodes I agree with, there are about 2 I disagree with. But, when they're tearing down religion, superstition, the paranormal and the like, I'm about ready to stand up and cheer.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad that the new season has finally arrived!
Top Ten Reasons That Beer Is Better Than Jesus:-
ReplyDeletea) No one will kill you for not drinking beer.
b) Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
c) They don't force beer on minors who cannot think for themselves.
d) Beer has never caused a major war.
e) When you have a beer you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
f) Nobody has ever been burned at the stake, hanged or tortured over a beer.
g) You don't have to wait 2000 years for a second beer.
h) There are laws saying beer labels cannot lie to you.
I) You can prove you have a beer.
j) If you are devoted to beer then there are groups who can help you stop
Rubin, Doctorboogaloo wrote a post on Jesus on ice.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the portion of the story relating that Peter tried unsuccessfully to walk on water, but fell in instead?
ReplyDeleteI believe that the most plausible explanation for Peter’s fall is that Jesus was wearing ice skates but Peter was either barefoot or at best wearing sandals.
That reminds me of a riddle: Why did Peter fall? Oh, I-C-Y.
I think that the 2 main points in this show that P&T were trying to get across are:
ReplyDelete(1) Elvis didn't do no drugs.
(2) That we need more Atheists in the world.
On point # 2: It's too bad that around 90% of the population in the US, (I don't know about Canada), has no clue as to why the world would be a better place if it had more Atheists in it.
Canada has between 19-30% Atheist/Agnostics. See March 21st post.
ReplyDeleteSweden and Denmark are Atheist heavens.
Swedish chicks mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I don't understand. Is this written for three year olds? This is the silliest "disproving" of the bible that I have ever seen/heard. I mean, if you take one specific fundamentalist reading of the bible, and try to justify it scientifically, of course you can find things to disprove it. Besides the fact that many people do not read it literally, and most who do, don't claim that there is historical evidence for it. Just because Penn thinks the stories don't seem fit for the non-existant God doesn't mean that he is the arbiter of "what is God". Its cute that he thinks that ina 29 minute TV show he can "prove" that God doesn't exist, but I would hope that you would be enough of a thinking person to realize that this is all silly and pointless
ReplyDeleteI don't understand. Is this written for three year olds?
ReplyDelete********************
You are talking about the bible, right? Personally, I think the bible is written for those between 4 and 9.
Cool! A Canadian atheist Jew in the blogosphere! I'm a somewhat Hebrew-speaking Canadian atheist myself, albeit not Jewish. I like your collection of flags -- I'd personally have Canada/UK/Israel, since I'm not feeling well disposed to the US at the moment and my bf is English, but chacun a son gout, eh?
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of a fan of Penn and Teller, except that I think too many Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke pot, and I also have too much of a sense of interconnectedness to ever be more than a civil libertarian... :)
Feel free to visit my blog, if you like.
IB, I'm a Right Winger on the war in terror. That coupled with my other views make me a Centrist. I'm not into the Far Left when it comes to Terror, and I feel Islam needs to be reformed in a bad way.
ReplyDeleteI don't speak French (4 years of it in school) and I don't speak Hebrew (I had a crash course for my Bar Mitzvah though).
OK, I'll say it. Lose the black background on your blog. A black background isn't viewer friendly.....I tell everyone with a black background this, I'm not singling you out:)
That has to be the funny shit I have seen about the bible. What is even more funny is watching a few of the posters here move the goal post around to save their faith in their imaginary friend.
ReplyDeleteThis was amazing, I'm going to break on those ten commandments and steal this article and blog about it.
A black background isn't viewer friendly.
ReplyDeleteMatter of taste. I prefer it.
I don't know what's worse: P&T's exhumation of debunked skeptic canards or the laughable comments here.
ReplyDeleteFor the guy who said:
ReplyDeleteI say, to Buddy above, great good for you if you have lots of personal miracles in your life, but if you know what you know, why do you feel a need to try to prove it here?
That stuff reeks of insecurity to me, but what do I know I'm just in misguided goy heading in the wrong direction, (I'm sure) in his opinion that is.
It doesn't reek of insecurity. It reeks of a good Christian who will not bear your blood on his hands at the judgment.
How anybody can look at the wonders around us and not believe in God is beyond me!
Do you really think this could happen naturally?
Evolution (and atheism) is just as much a faith based religion as Christianity.
There is less to prove evolution than there is to prove the Bible.
If you want some really interesting sites try the Institute for Creation Research or Answers in Genesis.
GOD BLESS
Hope you don't mind, I placed this (via blogger link) to Blondesense.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad to see another rational mind on the web! I was beginning to worry that superstition was taking over the world. And now I'm off to find that P&T episode on creation that someone mentioned.
Hmmm ok, I know this is my first time here, but 'ANONYMOUS' (and why didn't you at least give a name to yourself if you are so gungho over God) Please do not expect the world to blindly follow your superstitions.
ReplyDeleteIf you have to argue and post sites that attempt to 'prove' that your God exists than I have to point out to you that YOU are the one lacking faith. (And apparently have an unhealthy bloodlust, ie. apocalyse and rapture - to boot). Its the old Babble Fish premise, once you PROVE God exists there is no need for faith and God dies.
As for threatening ppl (and YES you are, even if it is in a round about way) with blood spilling during some hoodoo judgement; not only does it lack class and character, it is a clear symptom of delusion.
And as far as evolution is concerned, try taking some REAL courses in evolutionary biology, or go to Pharygula and drop Prof. Myers an email, you might actually begin to understand then.
Welcome flame. I just posted Ken Miller's lengthy lecture where he slaughters ID.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that Fundies like Anon won't watch it.
Whenever I see someone say that evolution is faith based, I just feel sorry for the person saying it.
They just don't have a clue.
why do people say there's more to "prove the bible" than there is to "prove evolution"? as if they're somehow oppossing forces (other than evo being based in observable fact)...it seems the height of idiocy, and to run around the internet looking for places to say "My aunts were cured of cancer by JESUS!"...that just boggles the mind. wasn't there a passage in the bible that says "keep your fuckin' faith to yourself, douchebag"? If there wasn't, it's a major oversight on the multitude of author's parts.
ReplyDeleteADDITIONALLY! why do people need fuckin' proof of the bible ANYWAYS? DON'T YOU TRUST YOUR MADE-UP GOD, DOUCHEBAGS? What's wrong with them? It's a sorry sight, all these faith-based morons not having enough faith to just say (ridiculously) "I don't care what the fact are, i just need faith".
And FUCK, why aren't you stoning your dipshit children to death LIKE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU TO when they watch That 70's Show and you told them not to? What's wrong with you sinners!
Good fucking shit, you people are idiots. it's enough to give a guy an aneurysm.
I once discussed conversion to Judaism with a rabbi, not because I wanted to convert, but I was curious if believing in god was a requirement. I'm sure the answer varies rabbi to rabbi, but the rabbi with whom I was speaking said no.
ReplyDeleteOne is Jewish if the aforementioned qualifications are met. Believing in god is not one of them.
I'm a Christian the same way. I was raised by people who inculcated into me certain myths and culture. I will always be the person raised with those ideas. It matters not a whit whether I believe in god or not (which I don't, but that's unimportant).
I believe that Jesus taught us something more fundamental than a hope in an after life. I think he taught us how to live better, more fulfilled lives. In other words, he taught technique as opposed to spiritual myth. Most Christianists I encounter worship the icon and never pay attention to the teachings of their icon.
Hey, my first time here, but I'll be back.
Cheers.
Thanks for commenting Houston. I can see a Rabbi saying that because how can anyone know how much someone believes. I'm sure many people convert to Judaism in mixed marriages for the sake of the other person, or that person's family and the potential children that come out of the marriage.
ReplyDeleteI do admit that the teachings you attribute to Jesus are useful moral guidelines, but I believe them to be man made, and I question whether Jesus even existed. See my sidebar for the Jesus Never Existed? links, if you are at all curious.
And Garth. LMAO, even if you are a Moonbat.
Belief is like a jailer
ReplyDeleteWho offers you a key
To free you from a prison
The jailer built for thee
+++
Thanks for the Penn & Teller show. I am utterly convinced that if a person thinks the (pick a version) bible is literally true they are truly lost. Religions, specifically of the mono-theistic variety, have survived the centuries by staying out of the harsh beam of light we call reason and science. Who will kill religion? True believers.
And every spring it is the Christians who put their god back up on the cross and pound those ancient nails into the flesh. Do they ever suspect why they repeat a story about death and rebirth just as it coincides with Spring in the Northern Hemisphere? Or was their creator just piggybacking for the heck of it?
+++
Thanks to flame for directing me here from BlondeSense. Great site bacon eating atheist jew! That's a great funny ass video! Saving you in my favorites!!
ReplyDeleteI came back on to see what was said after what I wrote. Whoa!?
ReplyDeleteYou people are really something.
Anytime someone doesn't agree with you we are ignorant.
It may surprise you to know that I have an IQ of almost l50. I could give you college level lectures on evolution. (Supposedly proving it to you that it's real.) But I could also give you lectures on ID.
My point is this, I studied the facts for myself. I made an informed, intelligent decision.
The major thing I could not get past in evolution was spontaneous regeneration. Life coming from non-life????? and it only happened once????? and it never happened again???? Like I said, evolution, a faith based religion.
And yes, Anonymous (In NC), if you want to get more specific. I don't need my e-mail full of a bunch of hate mail.
GOD BLESS!!!!!!
Anon, you are lying about your knowledge about evolution.
ReplyDeleteEvolution doesn't deal with the start of life, and evolution doesn't state that it happened only once.
Evolution deals with life once it started.
As far as ID goes, it is not science.
Go peddle your BS on your flock, my readership in onto you in a big way. Phoney.
Good job pissing off the Christians, fellow Canadian! :-)
ReplyDeleteIts cute that he thinks that ina 29 minute TV show he can "prove" that God doesn't exist, but I would hope that you would be enough of a thinking person to realize that this is all silly and pointless
ReplyDeleteNobody disproved the existence of god: the general worthlessness of the bible as a source of history, consistency, fact, law, morals or interest was what the show was about.
Anyway, it was fun to watch. Thanks to the Bacon Eating Atheist Jew for hosting it. For what it's worth, there are Jewish sects out there that allow atheists (my dad's in one) although they're probably not well thought of by the larger branches.
Anonymous, I personally doubt your IQ claim, but then again, IQ isn't a necessity for proper reasoning. Your own faith causes you to ignore what nature itself tells you. That isn't a measure of IQ, it is a measure of your need to believe. That falls under psychology, and in your case, I believe it could be found somewhere in the DSM-IIIR. Fundmentalists, of whatever ilk, religious or political, are way too into making the world revolve around their own view, which the world seldom does.
ReplyDeleteYes, my name is my name, and not anonymous. But, my name is from a character in a movie, The Young Lions. That movie, of course, is an anti-war movie, but the fact that the charecter learns to think for himself is the key point here. Faith not supported by logic is useless.
I'm mildly annoyed - I like P&T, and agree with their point. There is no God. That said, they didn't treat that theologian fairly. There were several points where it's pretty evident, if you already know a bit about the issues, that the theologian's comments were not kindly edited. The mainstream perspective in critical bible study (serious scholars, not AIG bullshit) agrees with the Skeptic mag fellow on many points. It seems as though they went to find someone devout with a patina of scholarly expertise, rather than a serious bible scholar. So although I agree with them in terms of worldview, I wish they'd been a little more diligent when they were looking for someone on the theist side of the argument. The fellow they have in that role is uncomfortably close to a straw man.
ReplyDeleteOf course, as mild annoyances go, it's nice to have a theist troll around to throw things into perspective. Mr. Anonymous theist, your claim that "I made an informed, intelligent decision" is highly dubious if we're to believe that you can't distinguish between abiogenesis and evolution, or that you take Intelligent Design seriously, or that you seriously think that evolution is "a faith based religion." You're a garden-variety troll - many claims, no evidence.
ReplyDeleteSirkowski, I am not trying to piss off Christians with my blog. My goal here is to entertain and maybe make people think.
ReplyDeleteBubba said: "Nobody disproved the existence of god: the general worthlessness of the bible as a source of history, consistency, fact, law, morals or interest was what the show was about."
Excellent summary!
I could go to Israel anytime I want and live there btw, that is the largest Jewish sect on the planet. They accept Atheists too.
Christian, as you probably saw, I noticed what you noticed.
Sean, if you take into account that 45% of Americans are YECs, P & T was extremely fair with their choice, to me anyways. I don't think Atheists have much of a gripe with Theistic Evolutionists, so why bother with them. Most of them believe in all the scientific evidence but also add a God as a creator, to give them a sense of purpose in life, and a shot at the afterlife. Many take coincidental occurences (like a big gust of wind out of nowhere) that happen at times of mourning or distress or even happiness as a sign of God or a guardian angel.
The "Bible is Crapola" Penn & Teller link seems to have been removed from the site you're linking to. Guess someone didn't like you distributing it. Bastards. Them, not you - glad you are getting it out there :).
ReplyDelete- Nick
It was predicted by God Is For Suckers. That is one prophecy that came true. He has the bible beat.
ReplyDeletethe video is up:
ReplyDeletehttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9162292468797126455&q=penn+duration%3Along&pl=true
Thanks guav. I just put the good link in. It is working for now.
ReplyDelete...jew, I have 1238 words response in word format and there is no feature where i can copy and past it. I have also copied and posted it on another link [not my blog] http://www.appletreeblog.com/?p=332. If there is a means to copy and paste here, I will do it, otherwise pls refer there, as continuation of our discussion yesterday at about 8ish pm .
ReplyDelete...jew, in case u can't find it, go to the archives and look under 'science' and then if need be search for the article forum that deals with 'gravity' and plane. I placed it there, because [1] it is a science response [2] it is not to do with being Christian like the other article on science & religion and why are u still a Christian [3] BBT deals with gravity too, as in the expansion of the universe, the matter that were attracted by gravity formed stars. I had 10 points but the 1000 words covers the 5 points for brevity.
ReplyDeleteBacon Eating Atheist Jew,
ReplyDeleteThe brief [partial write in 10 points I talked to you about] are at Comments No. #8 and #10 at this blog [not mine] http://www.appletreeblog.com/ and check under left hand column margin for 'categories' and then go down the bottom to the last 6th from the bottom, titled "science" and then go to the forum for the article dated Apr 12, 2006 titled "Gravity Plane! Woo" and then zero into comment No. # 8, #10 there for my response to your understanding of BBT [Big Bang Theory].
Regards,
G
Anon, problems with the BBT right now does not mean Godidit. Believers always use this dishonest approach in order to try to prove God. Does Intelligent Design ring a bell?
ReplyDeletebacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteIntelligent Design belittles God. Even the Director of the Vatican Observatory, a Jesuit [Roman Catholic priest] who works as full time cosmologist and stands high up in the American astronomical world, will tell you. If you need a link of what he publicly said on this, I can search for it. Alternatively you can work it backwards by going to vatican observatory and then go to staff and go for the director and see his name and cue his name in on ID and you will get the Jan 2006 statement that he said THAT !!! OK?
Have you visited the blog where I placed my comments for you too? I have just put in another 2 comments, # 11 [ comment of a priest cosmologist] and # 13 [mine], of 946 words dealing with 'event horizon' of blackholes as opposed to 'point zero' of the BB origin, as well as String theory 2002.
Anon, I'm not a phyicist. I've gone to that site. But two things, you won't convince me God was around 13.7 billion years when it is apparent he hasn't been seen since. As far as Catholicsm goes, I see no proof Jesus even existed as a man. So although I admire the Vatican these days with their acceptance of much of science, you can't convince me that God is the answer because science hasn't figured out the beginning of time yet.
ReplyDeletebacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDelete1. I am not evangelical, philosphical maybe. So, sorry pal, it was NOT an attempt to convince you there is GOD at 13.7 bi yrs ago or that God has been around for these 13.7 bi yrs. Nice try :- )))
2. Now you have proof Jesus did NOT exist? I like to see it.
3. That science does NOT yet know what happened at that micro second before the Big Bang, seems to not a big thing. If the universe was beginningless, then it is the Eastern Hinduism, Buddhism worldview. If it had a beginning at point zero, it tends to lean to Western Christianity. All bets are covered in philosophy :- ))) You gather that Quantum Gravity Loop leans towards BBT? Does it?
I can't prove Jesus didn't exist. But I can't prove he existed.
ReplyDeleteSee my sidebar for sources.
Again, I am not a physicist. As soon as scientists are in agreement that God was responsible for the the second before Big Bang, I will start to look at it.
And I mean 50%+ scientists.
1. I had a brief look at the source for Jesus never existed. Question, you are referring to [a] historical Christ and [d] divine Christ. Both. The historical Christ would need a better web site proof than currently obtained. The divine Christ is an issue of debate outside the Christian community, as three of the four Abrahamic faiths, do not see Christ as divine, human yes, prophet, yes. In other traditions, everyone of us is capable of great heights if we aspire hard enough. In Buddhism, everyone can be a Buddha if the effort is put in.
ReplyDelete2. Your 'reliance on external agreement of 50% + scientists' that there is God at the micro second before the Big Bang, depends as you know on-
[a] agreement of definition and experience of God, eg trinity of God, or unity of God, ...
[b] you do the survey from time to time of the scientists personal privately held view. Then again is it Canadian scientists or plus American or plus MORE?
[c] you are aware that the scientific community is not able to come up with a theory that is yet capable of proof, on the zero point, which is the micro second before the BB, and that this could come way after our natural life span.
[d] you cannot understand Loop Quantum Gravity now, but you entrust your reliance on scientists on theories that you do not yourself understand nor seek to understand.
3. Do you see or feel any implications of the scientific fact that 13.7 billion years ago less a micro second, of 0.0000000000001 second, that, all matter and energy that is now seen in this universe was a hot dense point or like a grain of little sand at high temperature? That you are matter and energy as are everything and everyone in the universe and that approx 13.7 bi yrs ago, we were ALL one !
bacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteUse philosophy, not advanced science of cosmology, beyond the basic grasp of fundamental cosmology. Your notion of no purpose of life, save the meaning you give to it, was said by well known Western philosophers from Soren Kierkegaard to Friedrich Nietzsche to Jean-Paul Satre. :- ))))
Anon about the historical Jesus. I offer more than one site. Bottom line is there is no proof he existed, and a lot of circumstantial evidence that he most likely was a myth based on 3 or 4 other stories/myths that were known at the time Christianity started.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the rest is concerned, I'm not playing the game. Godidit is not the replacement for something science has yet to figure out, in my lifetime, or even in a thousand future generations. I'm confident that science will answer your question and the answer will not include God.
bacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteOh yes science Answered OR ALSO answered my question, and I have laid it out at comment # 15,16 at the same blog. Whether it includes God, depends on one's philosophical understanding of God, but the main point is that it answers the Question of 'the purpose of life' the 'mystery of life' beyond just ethics, and that 'ethics' is an expression - natural expression of that understanding of the 'purpose of life'.
Ta da :- ))))))
I read it. Your philosophy doesn't fly with me. Sorry.
ReplyDelete"I read it. Your philosophy doesn't fly with me. Sorry."
ReplyDeleteOh cool! So in otherwords, your response amounts to:
"What you said isn't valid simply because I said so. Neener-Neener!"
For a second I though you wanted people to take you seriously with this stuff.
Nyred, I've already explained I'm not a scientist. I rely on what scientists come up with because I know how rigorous the testing processes are.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that no scientist speculates on God filling in the gap of what science can't explain today, doesn't sit well with me. Believers use this dishonest approach all the time for everything from the age of the earth to evolution to abiogenesis.
I am not going to take a theologians explanation for anything scientific, Sorry.
Find me a few scientists who buy into these theories and show me their work.
I will also add that yes, we are all related regardless of the start of the universe. We all share common ancestors, in fact humans share closer common ancestors 60,000 years ago for all males alive today and 150,000 years ago for all females alive today.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, everything in the universe started from the same origin. But God is not needed in this equation. God is a man made concept.
bacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteI am responsible for #8,10,11,15,16 and for the record, I am NOT a theologian, nor a Christian. So please GO and do your own science homework. Don't just say I am not a physicist, as if that excuses you from knowing the scientific theories on origin and development of the universe. I have linked talk origins and with your high IQ, that should be a piece of cake. :-)))))))
Anon, I read your stuff. Again, even Stephen Hawking says that if God did anything his window for activity was quite small (time zero). But again, you fail to convince me that God has to be a part of the equation. Unless you want to argue that God is nature. Science will eventually figure out what was going on at time zero. Maybe not in our lifetime.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, God is a man made concept.
Another thing Anon, the fact that there is no proof Jesus ever existed, shouldn't you worry about coming to terms with that as well. And does your "theory" depend on Jesus existing too?
ReplyDeletebacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteI asked you to read the science stuff at talk origins link posted. Use your high IQ to penetrate the science stuff 'for yourself' than deviate with side issues. Understand the science issues than rest on "I am not a physicist, scientist, leave it to scientists to tell ..."
bacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteFor a person who has such high IQ, one would expect 'fair play'. If you present an article or video on a critique of one holy text, you would be expected to research if you do not know, and then present the other redeeming features. A simple example is you would have researched and presented the Catholic think tank's attitude to science and the Bible.
If a Christian has difficulty reconciling science with faith, I would direct them to the Christians that understand creationism and intelligent design belittles God.
If an atheist has difficult in understanding the purpose of life, and thus concedes that, life has the meaning one gives to it, I would direct them to understanding some basics of cosmology on the origin and development of the universe and the philosophy of it. It works for some but not all.
I think we are fellow passengers then 13.7 billion years and now, and I am not about to tear down your understanding of life, without directing you to that which affirms better. For this reason, I find the efforts of all who tear down other religion, even if not mine, to be unethical, inconsiderate and destructive. It could have been otherwise. Just be 'fair' . :- )))))
I mentioned I am NOT a theologian, because your short reply to nyred, could also be read that you find my comments as a theologian dishonest. You may not have meant my comments. I just wanted to set straight the record I am not a theologian so that if you had perchance thought i was writing as a theologian, you might have seen it anew.
ReplyDeleteI think we differ on understanding the existence of God and also in understanding the concept of God. You limit yourself to the 'common' Judeo Christian concepts [ not even the Judeo Christian concepts of leading Christian cosmologists] and thus it is a non starter, an exercise in futility. The way out of the impasse is you brush up your understanding of the origin and development of the universe.
Your existence and my concept of your existence are different things as you can appreciate and thus you will appreciate that the existence of God and your concept of existence of God and my concept of existence of God will be different as will be 6-7 billion [thats about our global population] concepts of God couched in the positive or even in the negative :- ))))))
ReplyDeleteSorry, I understand that you have a creator in mind. I could never believie in the Judeo-Christian God, and I am not taking it you do either.
ReplyDeleteDo you believe in Jesus as the Messiah? If yes, then it is influencing your "theory."
I put your posts on another board. You are free to join and correct me there if you wish, but this thread is an old one.
Here is the link.
bacon eating atheist jew,
ReplyDeleteYour reply and very inappropriate action shows that you have again got the wrong end of the stick. I am a Theravada Buddhist, and if you are a genuine atheist, you would read with an open mind comments # 8,10,11,15,16 and my replies to you on this board.
Good night and fare ye well. :- )))))
What inappropriate action? Putting this argument on another board was something I had to do because I am a lay person when it comes to science. OK, I thought you were a Christian, but that still doesn't mean that you not trying to imply that the beginning of the universe was propped up by God.
ReplyDelete"BTW, no evidence Jesus ever existed. None. Zero." What an idiotic moron you are. But as a typical jew I should not be surprised that you are. Your ideas and actions are that of a typical jew who is pissed off that judaism is screwed up and based on being sore losers, do everything they can to prove that so is Christianity. Along the way you claim to be "Atheists", as if that is anything. Actually calling yourself an atheist reflects your persona: a disrespectful, arrogant, and self centered being who thinks that they know reality. Consequently if there is no proof of Jesus then is there any proof of anything beyond the industrial revolution? How about there is no proof of your so called jews being in Palestine and haul your lousy people out of "Israel" and go back to central asia where your true ancestry came from??
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence that Jesus ever lived. That is a fact.
ReplyDeleteAnon, you are an idiot if you think there is any proof.
And your rant about Jews and Judaism just shows your ignorance.
I posted under Anonymous on these dates and time :
ReplyDelete# 27 Apr 1.41
# 26 Apr 14.25 & 14.20 & 14.12 & 9.33 & 1.15
# 23 Apr 16.12 & 3.02 & 2.09
# 22 Apr 15.52 & 13.58
# 21 Apr 17.41 & 12.37 & 12.19
and confirm that 2 posts above by Anonymous 4 May 2006 19.01 is NOT by me. Neither the language nor the attitude is my way.
BEAJ, I sympathise with you the OTHER anon's adverse post, even though, I would point out that there are historians who acknowledge the existence and thus humanity of Jesus, while some acknowledge his divinity, others do not say anything of it. There is one historian who has written a 4000 years history of Western mind covering Greek, Hebrew, Christianity, etc, .... and he does acknowledge the existence of Jesus. Interesting too, I gather that the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into ancient Greek language some few hundred years before Jesus was born.:- ))))
G
There are many historians and theologians who admit that there is no historic proof Jesus existed, same with archaeological proof. Again, if you don't believe me, check out my sidebar under the Jesus links.
ReplyDeleteBEAJ, I read one link, Jim Walker's Did a historical Jesus exist? I was not too impressed for some of these reasons.
ReplyDelete1] I did not see his credentials as a historian.
2] I see his reference to 'hearsay' and since you came to to a US board, and from there, I came here, I will refer to US law on hearsay, as it will be slightly different from your Canadian hearsay law, even though we could have common 'common law ideas'. However in USA, there is the federal rules on hearsay and non hearsay. If you could take the time and trouble and look at hearsay, then, you will see my disenchantment at the writer's broad sweep of denial on the basis of hearsay.
3] Hearsay is used in courts of law, not even small claims court in USA. I cannot see how we judge history or religion solely on hearsay, and if court hearsay is applied to Christianity, then it should be applied to Buddhism. If memory does not fail me, oral tradition was strong, and Buddha's teachings were handed down by rote and memory before some hundred of years later that they decided to have it reduced to writing. I have a friend who is very into Buddhism and meditation and she told me she witnessed the recitation of the Buddhist Bible which is about 11 times the Christian Bible in length and they were word perfect as she had the text in hand and could listen to the oral renditions. Some just have photographic memory as one constitional law prof delivers his lectures with numberings as if he is reading from an open book. My friend was in Myanmar for the gathering of the Theravada Buddhist monks, some big affair once a few/many years.
4] Historians generally accept the historical Jesus Christ, and if you cite historians who reject the historical Christ, could you name them, provide their credentials and where they teach in USA, the university.
5] What is your purpose of establishing that Jesus did not exist?
6] The author cites Maurice, the French scientist Muslim, who would accept the historical Christ but not the divine Christ as a Muslim, but the quote, was of an aspect of his view point but does not show up his acceptance of the historical Jesus.
7] The author quotes Pagels, a well known Christian scholar from Harvard, and who did much work on comparing the gnostic text and canonised Gospels, but quotes are taken out of context.
8] In the course of my early days, Buddhist reading, I was surprised that scholarship of yester centuries can be different from today. For instance, we would not today, attribute our own scientific finding to Albert Einstein even if he had personally mentored us. In those times, it was considered good discipleship to attribute one's new findings built on one's teacher's teachings, to the teacher. I was also surprised some of the ancient Greeks did that too. I wondered whether this style was the acceptable fashion of that yester centuries.
9] When Einstein submitted his thesis in initial years there were no footnotes. Today such submissions would be thrown into the waste bin. Yet Einstein's Special Relativity and later General Relativity has improved on Newton's that our world has changed so much because of his style of non foot noted calculations.
10] With your high MENSA score, what is your purpose of pursuing this line of enquiry about non existence of Jesus Christ? If you really wanted to pursue it, you would have to undertake a lot of work, more than the few links you have done to determine whether there is a historical Jesus. I am reminded of Albert Sweitzer, who wrote his thesis of the Historical Jesus Christ and then left for Africa to be a missionary [ doctor?] As you know I am a Buddhist, but since you keep bringing this to my attention, I have 10 points for you to consider. I may not have done Christians or Christianity justice, but this is my Buddhist take as a fellow religionist.
Just to be sure, I am not confused with some irrate person, also 'anon', I shall sign off as G as between us. Yours truly,G
Anon, you should check out more than one link, other historians are mentioned.
ReplyDeleteFor over 40 years I accepted Jesus as a real person, but then I came across a lot of material that has led me to believe he did not.
I find the whole concept fascinating that the most famous person in "history" didn't exist. But more importantly, it shows that people who are trying to put creation into science class while dismissing evolution as junk science, don't even have a real foundation for their beliefs. I also am interested in real history.
On raving atheist (theists welcome), there is a current thread on the possibility that the myth of Jesus was based heavily on Caesar.
BEAJ,
ReplyDeleteI had TWO unpleasant insults from a poster at one of the threads with expletive employed. Hardly conducive environment for any intelligent discussion.
You have yet to furnish me the names of authoritative historians in US universities that deny the historical Christ. To my knowledge, there are none or hardly any, as yardsticks used by historians may be different from that you have used or those whose sources you rely on. Yours truly, G
Anon, I really don't want to dig up stuff right now. I can tell you that any honest authoritative historian would have to admit that he has no evidence that Jesus ever existed. The Gospels for sure aren't historical. Q is doubted. Josephus wrote about Christians who followed Christ....no proof. Again, there is no honest proof that Jesus existed...........none.
ReplyDeleteBEAJ, I am also tired. You asked me to go the atheist thread, and I find there is a failure even to distinguish between a psychosis and a belief system, mistaking the psychotic expression involving religious icons as identical to a psychosis. Then, I am told, calling someone a psychotic is not actionable without proof of damages, but failing to realise that generally, for general damages, no proof of damage is required to be pleaded or proved.
ReplyDeleteI will suggest to you, to read a good history text that spans the classical era of the Greeks, to the transformation of the modern era, by Richard Tarnas "The Passion of the Western Mind". It has 544 pages, soft cover, and in US it costs USD 16.95 and in Canada it costs $ 25.95.
1st edition, Apr 1993.
However if you have a personal reason for pursuing on your quest of non existence of Jesus Christ, I would suggest you limit it to your personal search and investigation, and UNTIL, you have the understanding of a majority of the reknowned historians, you would do better, to not take a public position on it, just on the purported type of evidence you have to establish your case. It is just my friendly advice, and need not be taken or considered.
I wish you well, Beaj. I respect you that you have not deleted any of my posts, and the same goes so far at the thread you invited me to. However, I would lack the energy to enter your new thread you invite me, where i find the level of courtesy [ at the atheist board and their several threads ] is seriously wanting, whatever the reason. Such discourtesy is disruptive of any intelligent and serious discussion. Such discourtesy, I have been advised is considered freedom of speech, an erroneous understanding of the fundamental right vis a vis American Constitution and its First Amendment, where there are no state actors, but a private forum!
I wish you well in your journey and years ahead, Beaj.
I might check in, in Sept 2006 if there is anything that Geezer or others have reverted on the BBT, Origin of the universe issue, and if they have NOT, you will understand what I mean by "inappropriate action" taken to learn or know of the BBT, origin of the universe [ that is despite my active intervention to jolt them]. Either they know or the scientists are acting like high priests who deem that knowledge should be kept to their elitist circle and couched in such technical language that lay persons cannot understand or are not worthy of understanding. I tend to think there is a lack of understanding on their own part, for if one knows, one can write a primer in a few hours. I tried your course of action and it did not yield result, but I will see what happens by Sept 2006 still. That's the best I can do, Beaj. Good nite.
Yours truly,
G
G, again, I've read lots about Jesus, and I know by now I would have come across real historical evidence if it existed. It doesn't. In fact, the more I read, the less I believe such a person even had a chance to exist.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't personal, I find it interesting, that someone who never existed had such a stranglehold on so many people.
Like I said, up until a couple of years ago, I assumed he was a real person. Then I started investigating what others were calling proofs.
Beaj, you are entitled to your belief that there is no historical Jesus Christ. You are entitled to your belief that the human Jesus Christ did not exist.
ReplyDeleteJust know that, most historians accept the existence of the historical Jesus Christ. That the human Jesus Christ existed. One historian mentioned that serious historians study five languages as he did. As I said, if one wants to prove your belief, one should undertake more serious work. How historians agree upon proof, is a matter of historical standards, not legal standards of hearsay, or US federal standard of non hearsay. Without a history degree or specialisation and without mastery of five languages, a person who declares he has proof that Jesus Christ did not exist, will not be taken seriously. Without the ability to refer to serious historians of repute who assert that Jesus Christ did not exist, stating their credentials and the university where they are tenured, any assertion that Jesus Christ did not exist, will not be acceptable, but if a minority, a very small minority wish to believe that Jesus Christ did not exist, it is their right to so believe.
Please note, the book I recommended, is about the development of Western mind from ancient Greek times, to modern times. It is not written by a historian but a philosopher. It is worth a read, about the shaping of the mind, the collective mind, towards an understanding of the Western mind today.
Cheerio. The die hards in the thread I mentioned, are still at wrong use of psychosis. You should consider asking the moderator to refer the proper use of the term to a psychiatrist, so that the understanding of the term can be understood, otherwise it does reflect badly on the understanding shown on the board/threads. I have done my best.
Yours truly,
G
You do know that I am not saying I have proof Jesus didn't exist, I'm stating there is no contemporary historical or archaeological evidence that verifies his existence.
ReplyDeleteWith all the impact he supposedly made, there was not one word written about him during the time he supposedly lived. Greek, Roman, and Hebrew historians didn't mention him, there are no letters that mention him, no physical evidence that he existed, and historians now argue that the chance of crucifixion might be one in 10 and on further reading, the crucifixion death wasn't written until around 2-300 years after Christ supposedly lived. The first words written about Jesus didn't appear until after the Christian movement just sprang up around 65 AD, it was an observation the Christians existed.
That being said, even today, crazy religions pop up all the time based on nonsense (scientology, mormonism, etc), it only took Jim Jones 14 years from becoming a minister to get 900 people to take cyanide.
Your argument about historians believing Jesus lived isn't relevant. They have no proof. None, zilch. And if you read all the links I provide on my sidebar about Jesus' existence, you can easily see how the Jesus myth most likely came to be and who the mythical Jesus is based on.
Beaj, your are aware that historians are dealing with the historical Jesus Christ, not the divinity of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteYour response indicates reference to historial standards are set aside, or should be set aside for the question of the existence of Jesus Christ and private standards of select people are utilised or are to be utilised. Also current standards are utilised against prior centuries and millineum even if inappropriate, without looking at standards used in past.
It appears that the purpose of your investigation and acceptance of the belief that the historical Jesus Christ did not exist, is a cornerstone of your atheist outlook. That being the case, it is your personal matter, and part of your belief system; and I shall leave it as that, respecting your belief, but having to disagree with it. My disagreement does not affect your personal belief, and maybe we should leave it rest?
In this case, my disagreement rests on views of historians that there is a historical Jesus Christ, by historical standards, not any other persons' standards.
Yours truly,
G
You are wrong. Honest historians state they can't prove Jesus existed. Show me one shred of evidence Jesus existed.
ReplyDeleteIt is not an Atheist requirement to not believe in a historical Jesus, but since many Atheists seek truths and use valid history as a guide, I can see why many would conclude like me. Again, I was an Atheist well before I stopped believing Jesus existed. That revelation happened less than 2 years ago through examination of information like the links I provided, which you probably won't read.
Beaj, the point is history is a discipline as science is a discipline, and historians accept the existence of Jesus Christ. Your denial remains a state of your belief, and as I respect the beliefs of others of the trinity or unity of God, I respect your personal belief that there is no historical Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteMr. BEAJ,
ReplyDeleteAs to not confuse this anon with others I will sign off as C. One irate individual named 'anon' gave you some nasty comments and you responded "And your rant about Jews and Judaism just shows your ignorance". If you are truly an Atheist you would not give a damn about Judaism, but it seems you do. As a Christian I will have to disagree with you and agree with 'anon' even if this person was uncontrollably angry. And the reason is because if most people in the world found out what true Judaism is about they would be horrified and disgusted. In Judaism the practitioners repeatedly sacrificed humans to "Molech" (whatever on God's green Earth that means) mostly their own children. Presumably to a form of Satan. This is only one of the bad things in your "Ex" religion. When God sent Jesus it was to put a stop to this unhuman and hatred-filled horrendous "religion". It has succeeded for the most part as practitoners of ancient Judaism will quickly find themselves in jail today. In fact I invite anyone to read the talmud... it makes the Quran sound like a Children's book on innocence. And yet you hate Muslims, Islam etc. when your own people glorify sacrifice and claim any non-Jew is an animal. And also if "Jesus did not exist" as you claim then that automatically means your talmud is also invalid because it is filled with lies: They claim the mother of Jesus was a whore and Jesus was a carpenter blah blah blah. As if you actual proof exists. But yet "there is no proof about the existence or divinity of Christ". What an obnoxious hypocrite! And these couple of clowns mocking the bible are going straight to hell after their brief but miserable existence on Earth is over. I challenge anyone to find anything bad and contradictory info in the NEW TESTAMENT, the part of the bible which teaches Christianity. In the Old Testament the writing went back hundreds of years before Christ. And all this lame rhetoric about Noah's ark being impossible etc shows YOUR ignorance. If you even bothered reading the bible the people of Noah and the people of today are not the same. In Noah's time lifespan was around 1000 years. Today it is about one tenth. So who do you think you are and who do these two clowns Penn & Teller think they are making decisions as to what is true and false? You don't even know the entire story and you make desperate conclusions. And what about "evolution"? Well what about it? Only a fool believes humans reached their current state from whatever animal you think they evolved from. Evolution is not scientific and true science does not contradict Christianity in any way no matter how you Atheists and Jews try to claim otherwise.
Incidentally the scientists on the board/threads, appear to have difficulty distinguishing the difference between psychosis and belief system, something that psychiatrists are VERY clear as to the IMMENSE difference, otherwise their diagnosis or treatment of psychosis can be a subject of medical malpractice running into damages of thousands or millions of dollars for wrong diagnosis.
ReplyDeleteBut at the board/threads' level, it shows poorly of the state of scientific understanding in this instance. Yours truly, G.
anon C has a coincidental [second time] timing of popping up at the juncture where the spot light is on the discipline of history. :- ))) G
ReplyDeleteBeaj, would you be writing as an anti-thesis of Beaj to stir up debate and arguments? << wink >>> :-)
My premise remains, Beaj, that, history is a discipline and those who have undertaken the discipline and have even learnt five languages to deepen their discipline, their position that there is a historical Jesus Christ stands for many and for me.
Beaj, by the way, what do you think of the persistent die hard view on the board/threads that [b]equate[/b] psychosis with religious beliefs? Refer first post at page 3 of thread [b]"scientists, please read". [/b]
ReplyDeleteBeaj, by the way, what do you think of the persistent die hard ERRONEOUS view on the board/threads that equate psychosis with religious beliefs? Refer first post at page 3 of the thread scientists, please read.
ReplyDeleteBy G.
One poster there always equates believers with being psychotic. That is not what most posters say on Raving Atheists.
ReplyDeleteBoth Anons, you can put in a name and not an email address to post here I think. I hate to think that you believers are so unoriginal you can't come up with a stage name.
Where do I show concern for Judaism, outside the fact that most of my family is Jewish, some of my friends are Jewish, and I would be gased because I'd be considered an ethnic Jew if another Hitler came along.
Christianity is a complete fake religion. And it's followers are very gullible, especially the first followers. People will buy anything. Jesus never existed. Christians have been had.
Beaj, I did think at first it was one poster, but did initially wonder other posters especially scientists do not tell off this errant poster that his/her view is just OFF scientific understanding. Its as if silence is implied encouragement of that EERONEOUS view.
ReplyDeleteWhat alerted me was the science pls help, I am no scientist thread, where a scientist poster who was going to call for questions and answer actually placed a category Neurology [ with name of the poster with the ERRONEOUS VIEW, wrongly equating psychosis with religious beliefs]. Then I realised that others even some scientists or at least one on record and in writing agrees with the erroneous view !!! Further there appears a second lay poster who also echoes this wrong view.
In addition, in the other science thread, scientists please read, another poster conversant with psychology but not psychiatry, glossed over an initial mistake in introducing the term bipolar disorder, and another psychologist expert also could not see the distinction between biploar disorder with or without psychosis.
It surprises me that such an OBVIOUS MISTAKE is allowed to go off scot free. And on science threads as well.
As to use of anon, you have the 'anon' button and it is so easy to just click on it. Maybe you should devise something else?
Beaj, as to the historical Jesus Christ, my take is he is a great man. I agree with historians that there is a historical Jesus Christ. G
ReplyDeleteBeaj, the rule on the board not to attack the poster but the content is not adhered to, and it was even pointed out there is a rule that the board does not guarantee the accuracy of the [scientific] views there , so why do you even refer the questions of the understanding of the BBT and origin of the universe to the science thread?
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I bade them good luck as there is some/much resistance [ depends on how one views the thread, scientists please read] to the idea that it is erroneous to equate religious believers per se to psychotics. It only shows poorly of the level of scientific appreciation.
Based on the above, it is very clear to me now, abundantly clear to me now, that, the board and the thread, scientists pls help, i am no scientist, is wholly inappropriate for any worthy discussion of BBT and origin of the universe.
I trust you see why it is inappropriate.
Yours truly,
G
Beaj,
ReplyDeleteI have signed off the thread which you created to seek science help on understanding BBT and origin of the universe, by linking the talk that a Roman Catholic [Jesuit] priest cosmologist, Father George V Coyne S.J., Director of Vatican Observatory, gave on Jan 30th 2006 for the following reasons -
1] the very poor show at the science thread, "scientists please read" on the difficulty to distinguish between psychotics and average religious believers. The resistance against moving away from equating religious believers to psychotics, speaks poorly of the level of scientific comprehension ; AND
2] the absence of reply on the questions clearly laid out at your created thread, 'scientists pls help, i am no scientist' The absence of any easy to read primer that a scientist worth his salt cam come up with within a few hours if not a few days or over the week end .
Do your own reading on BBT and origin of the universe, as I advised at the very outset.
Yours truly
G
MAYBE YOU CAN POST A LINK TO JEWWATCH FOR ME TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. U HAVE POSTED LINKS TO HATEFUL SITES AGAINST CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS AND HINDUS. POST SOME FOR JEWS AS WELL.
ReplyDeleteHindus? I don't think I've ever posted about Hindus. I tend to past facts based on reality or satire based on reality. I don't believe I'm into hate. As far as Jews go, I do not think the Exodus happened and I know that the Ark was a joke.
ReplyDeletePenn and Teller are the real Bullshitters. The edited the footage to make it appear that Paul Maier was presenting his own thoughts when he was actually telling us what the liberal point of view is.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.concordtx.org/msnews/maier2.htm
You are blind
ReplyDeleteI call to arms in a War on Religion. Fought in your mind against stupidity, brainwashing, and inability to see things as they are.
ReplyDeleteSome are lost and some are found...
ReplyDelete