March 14, 2007

BASHING THE GAY BASHERS


I am a champion of the gay cause, even though I have no close friends who are gay (that I know of), and I don't have one gay bone in my body.

I've made many posts on this issue. So let me recap:

Homosexuality occurs during fetal development in most cases
It is not a choice almost all of the time. Sure, nurture may create a few homosexuals.
Priests and Reverands seem to be able to find future homosexuals to abuse. Maybe they just have phenomenal gaydar. Rev. Alber Mohler Jr., a Southern Baptist is in the news today, acknowledging that homosexuality most probably occurs in the womb, but he wants science to help. He still considers homosexuality to be a sin, and he wants potential gay babies to be cured in the womb.
This has upset both gays and Fundidiots. Gays of course, because he is calling homosexuality a sin regardless. And Fundidiots are pissed because he is admitting that God turns fetuses into homos, and this of course means gayness isn't a curable choice. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Homosexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom
Animals have no bibles to tell them right from wrong. So Fundidiots who claim it is a moral issue are screwed. Why would their God create animals that engage in gay behavior? God must be OK with gay animals. Unless of course, gay animals engage in gay behavior just to piss off their parents. They don't have priests or revs so abuse by the clergy doesn't happen in the non human animal kingdom.

Gay marriage doesn't hurt anyone.
Except it bothers homophobic Godidiots because either they are too retarded to understand that homosexuality is natural or they themselves have homosexual urges that they are fighting. And fundidiots will do whatever it takes to put the bible into the public system.

Homosexuals do not hurt anyone who wishes not to participate. By my definition of morality and immorality, homosexuality is completely moral.
Fundies argue that beastiality and pedophelia are just as moral as homosexuality. This is incorrect because children and animals are not willing adults.
*************************

I could never be a member of the ACLU because I believe in racial profiling and I think governments should have extra priviledge when it comes to tapping phones of terrorist suspects and things like that. But I can't support the Stop The ACLU crowd either, because they are for the most part, a bunch of Godidiots who wouldn't know separation of church and state if it bit them in the ass. They are almost as theocratic in belief as the rulers of Saudi Arabia, but they are too stupid to realize it.

Today's bashing of gay bashers started here at Developing Your Web Presence
, where Amy Proctor called my handle "sickening." I decided to pay her blog, Bottom Line Up Front a visit, where I proceded to make minced meat out of her Godidiot homophobic followers. That took me to the Stop the ACLU Fundretard site. Oh, looks like my last comment got deleted. Luckily cocomment saved it for me. Praise cocomment:

Lobo, sure Wikipedia is criticized, but if you check out the links from their page, you will see they link to actual scientific studies. And I said that modern science tends to believe that most homosexuals are created during fetal development. Your cut and paste is juvenile at best.

Homosexuality is not immoral, because most homosexuals are born that way, and they aren't hurting anyone with their actions, if protection and proper precautions are taken. And it is between 2 (or more in some cases) willing people.

Again, if a man who makes military decisions is a religious loon who believes in the Rapture and End Times, he should be forced to resign, because his mythological ridiculous beliefs could sway his decision making.

Why are sheep gay? Did someone teach them to be gay or are they just trying to get back at their parents?


Why would he delete this? Why are Fundidiots so insecure about their beliefs? I know why, because deep down they know they have nothing.

Now, Wake Up Americans had the best monitor and argument, though the basis was flawed as I pointed out. Gays are not treated equal or perceived as equals.
******************************

NOTE: My post on the Jesus Myth and the Long Lost Tomb of Jesus made the Skeptics Circle #56 at Scientia Natura

72 comments:

  1. I'm glad you could save your posts! I wasn't able to revive mine after they got deleted at StopTheACLU as well. I'm glad I went back there once more to find your posting.

    Oops, looks like they added 1 back in.

    By the way, you got me with your first line in this post. You rock sir. As a human being first, you strike me as a logical thinker and take 'love thy neighbor' to heart. As a gay man, I love and cherish my straight friends, and it makes me smile to think there are more and more people out there like you.

    I also have many Canadian and Jewish friends, some of whom are dear to me. It sounds as though you would fit right in. But alas, you are far away!

    Thanks again and I'll add your feed to my Bloglines!

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  2. Wy don't you let the gay bashers and the fundie idiots know exactly how you feel? Hahaha

    I worked with gay people a lot as heaps of them are in the music industry. Either selling in music stores, running music stores, or as artists.

    I don't get the homosexual freak out either.

    And I do think that the most radically opposed people towards homosexuality are usually those whose willy moved while watching another naked man in the shower.. In other words, they fear that they might like it.

    Amazingly enough, the same guys who freak out about male homosexuality, are equally obsessed about how great the idea of lesbianism is.

    Go figure - they are seriously messed up.

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  3. You align with the sodomites because you are also involved with an abomination with your intermarriage and assimilation, and la carte judaism atheism. They are both sins against god and man.

    Gays want to change the definition of marriage. Sorry pal, it doesn't work that way. The male bum is made for one thing, elimination.

    The Military has no use for thieves and queers.

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  4. Help for Jewish Homosexuals That is Consistent with Torah PrinciplesA new organization, JONAH, is dedicated to the belief that homosexually oriented individuals were not created gay, and they can modify their identity and ...
    www.narth.com/docs/torah.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

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  5. Before you laud the gays, you should do something about your blatant racism, hypocrite.

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  6. I don't think marriage of any sort is the governments business.

    It's a private contract between adults whatever they are.

    Sorry you have to deal with so many haters beaj.

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  7. I have to agree with Hammer on this. Weather homosexuality is a sin or not is between individual homosexuals, and God (if God exists).

    I don't think any other people should have any interest in the matter...

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  8. "hater"

    another type of antisemite race card

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  9. Jefferson, I accept homosexuality as a natural fact based on logic. And when I know I am right, I post about it. Thanks for the kind comments.

    BeepX2, I really don't need to see guys embrace on TV, but I don't mind seeing hot chicks kissing...does that make me gay?

    Narth.com needs to deny genetic and biological evidence to make themselves rights. Typical reality deniers.

    Hammer, most of the haters I attract are Rickey aka Anonymous. I don't mind haters, I like giving them a forum and then ripping them to shreds or just let them look like idiots.
    It is my belief that the internet will be the death of the Young Earth Creationist movement within 25 years. You can't get away with spewing falsities and insane thoughts on the internet unless you do so within a small group...but that isn't what the internet is all about.

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  10. BEAJ:

    You're getting the hang of this video thingy: this is the best so far, but you should have worn a leather cap though and put YMCA in the background (LOL)!

    Seriously though, religious homophobes are the worst because they feel their bigotry is justified because the Vengeful Homophobe in the Skies has told them so...

    Madze came back over to mine pleading compassion for these "ill" gays, who should be treated medically as we do "bipolar, anorexia and schizophrenia". He's soooo compassionate.

    In their extreme form, religious beliefs are delusional and quite dangerous to boot.

    Over at Amy's I've given my final two cents. You did all the work for me whilst I was asleep; I cannot thank you enough...

    I'm still rather surprised that our posts drew relatively little attention from actual gays. Pity, in my view.

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  11. wow. i just noticed the tie you are wearing that video. that rocks! lol

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  12. Gert, I guess the background music of Dianna Ross and Rupaul doing I Will Survive wasn't loud enough.

    I doubt too many gays visit those sites mentioned in my post.

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  13. I think that redefining the term marriage to include gay couples alters the meaning of the word to such an extent that it almost destroys the concept. Marriage implies two halves to make a whole, a ying and yang sort of thing. Who is the husband and who is the wife becomes less clear but I guess it is a minor point and language is morphing all the time. We could have classic- marriage and modern-marriage. The husband wife relationship in a homosexual marriage always fascinates me. Is it ok to ask who is the giver and who is the taker or do they take turns or do we have to work that out for ourselves from mannerisms? I guess it’s none of my business.

    I still reserve the right to indulge in some loving mocking of the gay community after all there are some pretty queer folk amongst it. I’d mock fat people too and the handicapped maybe and maybe the odd ethnic minority – yeah gays aren’t that special. The only two gay guys I knew were quite sordid in their sexual practices but that may have been a result of their perceived discrimination and a reaction against it or they were just plain perverted or something. Who knows but they are both dead now. You know a lot of the ancient laws and discriminations were early attempts to preserve the health and fertility of the people. Homosexuality, adultery, idol worship, eating pork etc were abominations because it was observed that it often lead to an early demise or no children were produced. It seems quite safe to eat pork these days though – though I stay away from the wild stuff. Can’t help thinking that my two gay acquaintances would be alive and healthy today if they weren’t so promiscuous but then they would be living pretty dull lives I guess.

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  14. hmmm, I didn't quite agree with that first Wiki article. I'm more along the lines of seeing homosexuality as a social thing. Ancient greece had rampant homosexuality. Much more so than modern societies, and they weren't any different genetically than we were. Homosexuality was just a part of their culture. I could of course be wrong, but I've yet to see a really definitive study stating that homosexuality is a biological/genetic thing.

    anyways, I quite enjoyed your rant. The political process against gays is such a farce. It's based on ideology and "fundy foolishness." I live next to a gay couple. I honestly doubt my life is going to change in the slightest if they were to get married. Heck, maybe I'd get invited over for a party to celebrate their marriage. So, I guess my life would change for the better. Who'd have thunk it?

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  15. AA, what is the concept of it? Check out the history of marriage. Polygamy was big in the early days, and still is in some cultures. 50% of marriages end in divorce. People live together for years and years and don't make it official.
    Words change their meanings all the time (take fag for instance), and some evolve to take on other meanings (like web and net).

    Kyle, there is a lot of evidence that homosexuality occurs in the womb most of the time. I had a high school teacher (math, go figure) who used to do a dialogue at the beginning of class. I remember one dialogue where he theorized that homosexuality is partially inherited or at least there is predisposition to homosexuality (this was 1979, so it wasn't based on what we know today). He said that when homosexuality is most accepted by a society, future generations tend to have less and less gays, because open gays for the most part, don't breed (thought this is changing). When there is less acceptance, gays are forced to be closeted, and wind up living a lie and having kids (see Ted Haggard).

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  16. Kyle, you might have to buy a wedding present.

    Bacon, the concept of husband and wife I guess but I did admit that words change . Marriage is a generic term and can be applied to things that are not even human. I suppose husband and wife will stay around for a bit longer.

    I think that a lot of gay people might be happy with the status quo as if gay behaviour becomes main stream it will lose a lot of its shock value and will become unappealing. Mardis Gras dress ups and that sort of thing, ho hum.

    I think that lesbianism is logical for a woman as it makes sense to want to be like men as men are superior in almost every way except thay can't produce children. Male homosexuality appears to be a betrayal of the superior human state of manliness and so comes into a fair bit of criticism - no real man wants to be seen as girlie or gay really. And God's a man, Jesus too, and Mo and Buddha - clearly there's something in that.

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  17. You should get your driver's licence and get out of the house instead of posting blog sheit.


    http://theatheistjewslob.blogspot.com/2007/03/now-pusgut-is-sucking-up-to-fags.html

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  18. marriage: Definition, Synonyms and Much More from Answers.commarriage n. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. The state of being married ; wedlock.
    www.answers.com/topic/marriage - 276k - Cached - Similar pages

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  19. mar·riage (măr'ĭj) pronunciation
    n.

    1.
    1. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
    2. The state of being married; wedlock.
    3. A common-law marriage.
    4. A union between two http://persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

    From www.answers.com/topic/marriage

    You should learn how to paste links. If you use Mozilla, download the extension BBCodeXtra, it really isn't difficult. Even an Atheist Jew can figure it out.

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  20. I have a logical question.

    How can organisms be born gay, if it is the case that humanity is the result of millions of years of evolution? Natural selection prohibits homosexuality being natural, since homosexuals don't leave descendents. Even if one rejects Darwinism, it doesn't make any sense, unless one is some sort of gay creationist.

    Such is the nature of things today. To be a man or a woman is a matter of choice, but where you put your Johnson is natural. People deep down know this is a bad argument, since we don't call pederasty, bestiality, and rape natural.

    The explanation of homosexuality in the animal Kingdom will ultimately have to be on the nurture side, and not the nature side of the equation. Gay activists don't like this, because it entails the possibility of restraint, if not change.

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  21. Atheist,

    First I want to apologize for Akismet catching your replies and them not posting. They were very interesting observations. Secondly I disagree with your assessment and rationale you use to for saying homosexuality is imprinted in the womb. You and I at length have disussed Natural Selection and Darwin's survival of the fitest theory. If we are just a higher order of animal as you say, than being born with homosexual tendencies would not occur.

    The behavior in the animal kingdom is associated with one male, after asserting dominance over a group of males and females, forcing the males to subrugate to his dominance. This is not behavior in the womb, it is learned behavior.There have been numerous studies including Leakey's that shows where the other males did compete for dominance, but lost.

    I believe the reason people go gay is related to two issues. One being wholly caused by an abusive early environment, and the other is caused by an imbalance of hormones that are either from the father or the mother. In the end it comes down to conscience choices that are made, and will power. That being said lets look at a case history and see how you would handle this person.

    A guy with a long history of drug abuse and a long criminal record is found to have an I.Q. close to mentally retarded since birth. It is discovered that this person was also physically and sexually abused as a youth.

    One of his past crimes was inappropriate touching of a girl younger than 10, and exposing himself to young girls around the same age as the first. Later in life this guy sees a girl he likes. He abducts her, sexually molests her and then kills her in a particularly horrible way.

    Now if we go by the way of we are just higher animals this guy just acted on his imprinted orders and should be set free because he was just acting on his animal instinct, and as Darwin says it is about survival of the fitest. In the animal kingdom adults kill children all the time. Just watch Meerkat Manor for a couple weeks and you will see it.

    Of course any rational human says this guys needs to be taken out of society because he has violated the law. Why? Because it isn't a matter of genetic imprints, it is a matter of right and wrong, a matter of willpower.

    I know you love talking about the separation of church and state yet the document was guided by the bible. If you read the Federalist Papers which were the letters sent by the drafters back to their home states you will see it all in them. Concerning the Separation issue they explained in detail how they did not want the state to establish a national religion. That is it. It has been these elitest who have decided to try and hijack the constitution. On both sides.

    If as you say our religion and our constitution are not associated, why would it have the line "All men are CREATED equal." It doesn't say evolved equal, it says created equal.

    One last point. I know you are an intelligent guy and I have enjoyed our debates, but name calling and insults just becuase someone holds a different belif than you is elitest and not productive.

    Thanks for the great post.

    Peace
    Mark
    aka
    The Tampa Pirate

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  22. In the animal kingdom to my knowledge, it is nature not nurture. Gay sheep and different sized hypothalamus' than straight sheep.
    As far as homosexuality going against evolution. Hermaphrodites exist. And take ants for example. Very few ants actually reproduce, but they are needed to ensure survival of the species.
    But aside from that, what I've read is most homosexuality occurs during fetal development and has to do with estrogen and testosterone released by the mother. This may have genetic implications where some parents are prone to give birth to a gay child than others.
    And it isn't that gay people haven't had kids. Lots of closeted actors in the 50's became fathers. Robert Reed, Cary Grant, and Tony Perkins to name a few. And do doubt many women who were more sexually attracted to women than men got married because of social norms.
    Homosexuality isn't in the genitals, it is in the brain. And simply put, the sexual part of the brain gets turned on by the same sex.
    One more thing, there are many women who have the dyke look, and it isn't because they dress to it.
    It confirms to me, that these females were probably exposed to too much testosterone or too little estrogen and key development times in the womb.

    Here is an interesting study on finger length and gayness.

    You can't say finger length is nurture.

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  23. The only acceptable marriage is that of a man and woman as husband and wife. The sodomites always want to change things to suit themselves, just like intermarriage and assimilation, violating the sacred tenets of the species.

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  24. TP, I was answerring Jason about nature versus nurture. You must have posted when I was publishing. But those are my views to part of your comments. I'm not discounting that some sexually abused children wind up gay either. I'm discussing the majority.

    Don't forget to read what Bidstrup has to say about secular history at the time of the NT.

    In the animal kingdom adults kill children all the time
    *********************
    That is not true. Only cases I know are when gerbils become overrun with fear, lions want to usurp the former king, and chimps kill babies of neighboring tribes to teach a lesson to stay away. Most animals do not kill their offspring, though some are cannibals...and this is usually when there are lots of offspring and no threat to the next generation numbers game. Ever see how crocodile mothers handle their newborns. Amazingly gently.


    I'm Canadian btw, and of course the Federalist papers did keep God and creation in mind. It was written before Darwin came along don't forget. If it was written before the 1500's it would be written under the premise that the sun revolves around the earth.

    "All men are CREATED equal." It doesn't say evolved equal, it says created equal.
    *****************
    Two parents create a child and besides as stated earlier, they didn't know about evolution, and I would never say that all men are evolved equally. All man is created equal as far as rights go.

    but name calling and insults just becuase someone holds a different belif than you is elitest and not productive.
    ********************
    I can't help myself. I'm like a Don Rickles of Atheism:) I've found that if I play too nice with creationists, they just will try to convert me anyways:)

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  25. What is baldy really trying to say?


    "I am a champion of the gay cause, even though I have no close friends who are gay (that I know of), and I don't have one gay bone in my body."


    Don Rickles my ass. The unemployed one is not even a pimple on Don's ass.

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  26. TP:

    If the truth be known, most gays are in therapy and/or manic depressive. fact

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  27. Beaj well said.

    I dont realy undersand the debate as to wether or not homosexuality is natural or not. To me it doesent realy matter if its natural or not, if it isint harming anyone, why not let them? natural or not two gays getting married doesent hurt anyone, not even themselves(assuming they have safe sex).

    If something is natural it doesn't make it moral. Pedophilia for example is a natural phenomenon, or even just a cultural taboo. In other cultures i is acceptable to marry 13 year olds. I'm not saying this is acceptable just that it is a natural thing.

    Anyways my point is natural or not homosexuality is still a morally acceptable thing.

    Also i wouldn't mind if there were gay dudes making out on TV, no sure if is relevent just felt like putting it out there.

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  28. RE BEAJ

    Male homophobes hate to see gay men kissing, but love to see gay women kissing.

    Most men, including homophobes, like to see gay women kissing.

    Does it mean the men are gay? No, it means they are your average male pervert. ;)

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  29. RE: "Natural selection prohibits homosexuality being natural, since homosexuals don't leave descendents."

    Wrong.

    Homosexuals leave descendents all over the place. Just because a man is gay, it doesn't mean he can't have sex with a woman and produce children.

    Just because a man is gay, it doesn't mean that his willy stops working in the presence of a naked female.

    Ask Ted Haggard. He's got a few children.

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  30. Jason:
    How can organisms be born gay, if it is the case that humanity is the result of millions of years of evolution? Natural selection prohibits homosexuality being natural, since homosexuals don't leave descendents.
    You've heard of gay dads? Not adopted?
    Such is the nature of things today. To be a man or a woman is a matter of choice, but where you put your Johnson is natural.
    I'd advise that you look up the topic of masturbation. http://www.answers.com/masturbation
    "The prostate gland is one of the organs that contributes fluid to semen. As the prostate is touch-sensitive, some directly stimulate it using a well-lubricated finger or dildo inserted through the anus into the rectum. Stimulating the prostate from outside, via pressure on the perineum, can be pleasurable as well."
    If it's 'unnatural', then why does the prostrate gland contribute to semen production?
    People deep down know this is a bad argument, since we don't call pederasty, bestiality, and rape natural.
    No, the argument from nature is actually an excellent point.
    450 social animals, from the birds to the bees, even educated fleas (oops, sorry Tony Bennet) - natural selection isn't only about propagation. It's the wiring of social networks, reciprocal altruism, & pain vs. pleasure.

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  31. Anon, if gays are in therapy or depressed, a lot has to do with how society and their family treats them for being gay. As far as your "majority" statement goes: Prove it.

    Pat, read my link to how I define moral. Pedophelia and beastiality do not fit into my definition of morality, but sex between two or more willing same sex adults does.

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  32. BBIM:
    Does it mean the men are gay? No, it means they are your average male pervert.
    Here now, I take exception to that: I'll have you know as a pervert, I am far above 'average'. ;)

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  33. Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." The term abomination (to'ebah) is a religious term, usually reserved for use against idolatry; it does not mean a moral evil. The verse seems to refer to temple prostitution, which was a common practice in the rest of the Middle East at that time. Qadesh referred to male religious prostitutes. (See the discussion of Deuteronomy)

    Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....". The passage is surrounded by prohibitions against incest, bestiality, adultery and intercourse during a woman's period. But this verse is the only one in the series which uses the religious term abomination; it seems also to be directed against temple prostitution.

    These passages are part of the Jewish Holiness Code which also:

    permits polygamy
    prohibits sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
    bans tattoos
    prohibits eating rare meat
    bans wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
    prohibits cross-breeding livestock
    bans sowing a field with mixed seed
    prohibits eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
    requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath

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  34. Issues in Psychotherapy with Lesbian and Gay Men: A Survey of ...The majority (93%) of the sample were licensed psychologists. ... Psychotherapy with gay men and lesbians: A history of controversy. ...
    www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/issues.html - 65k - Cached - Similar pages

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  35. Rickey, you should really sign in instead of posting as anonymous. That way more people will click your name and head over to see how you've currently exposed me.

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  36. homosexuality is as homosexuality does

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  37. You are promoting sodomy so much, you must have a personal interest.

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  38. Promoting sodomy? I'm promoting equal rights. I'm promoting science.
    If you can't handle the truth, jump off the planet.

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  39. I am a champion of the gay cause, even though I have no close friends who are gay (that I know of), and I don't have one gay bone in my body.

    This is an interesting way to start this post Bacon. That’s a pretty grand word ‘champion’ and then the admission that you don’t associate with gay people and a quick and really quite unnecessary defence of your manliness by claiming you are 100% hetero (although the word bone gave me a Freudian speed wobble). It’s as if you fear being labelled gay and go to some pains to clearly state that you are not, as if, ..as if, there may be something possibly shameful about it. Yet clearly it is not shameful because , like, uhh sheep do it all the time…. Otherwise why mention your own sexual orientation or mention it so categorically?

    I’ve been mulling over a theory that if one doesn’t actually participate in a certain activity one doesn’t really respect it. For an example I believe the Islamics think this way and in a theoretical way I agree with them. You can say you respect a religion but then if you do not practice its tenets is that really respect? No it is not, it is merely tolerance. Islamics regard mere tolerance as about as bad as outright hostility. A lot of people claim they respect things when all they mean is that they don’t show any public hostility toward it. Private thoughts may be another matter. Even private thoughts that are ambivalent toward something are not the same as respect. Just a thought.

    If you are anything like me the mere thought of caressing a hairy, muscle bound body sends a shudder down your spine which is just another way of saying I “don’t have one gay bone in my body”. With this understanding of my own feelings I would hesitate to think of myself as a worthy of the label “champion of the gay cause”.

    I dunno, what do others think?

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  40. All:

    It may sound counterintuitive but there may well be a genetic component to homosexuality. Sexual orientation is a complex human trait, likely to be affected by multiple genes, rather than just one 'switch'. That can lead to some unexpected, thoroughly 'unmendelian' genetic interactions. Gays make up 5 - 10% of the population and that would fit well with a complex rule of genetic inheritance. In such a scenario it is perfectly possible (but not very likely) for a straight couple to have gay offspring. Some genetic traits have a tendency to jump 2, 4 sometimes 8 generations.

    Also, being gay doesn't necessarily mean not having the desire to have offspring: many gay men and women do have children, in various arrangements.

    But I agree with Beep x2: whether or not it's 'natural' is rather beside the point. Those who claim it's 'unnatural' or 'immoral' usually fashion their definitions to fit their dislikes: religiously inspired homophobia is a typical example. Religious homophobes hide behind their Imaginary Friend to justify what they feel is distasteful, even 'filthy', hence also the many connotations with paedophilia. They forget however that there are also straight abusers of children and that some abusers don't seem to make the distinction between the sexes at all: any victim will suit them.

    What two consenting adults do with their sex life falls outside the realm of morality: how can something be immoral when no-one gets hurt or harmed?

    Lastly, it is true that homosexuality is rife in the animal kingdom, to me that's clear evidence that homosexuality can almost never be 'instilled' in a person, with exception perhaps of the most horrible cases of abuse.

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  41. Yeah, your'e a regular MLK

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  42. AA, I just wanted to give my readers the perspective from where I am coming from. The beginning statement isn't a Beatles song where you play it backwards to find other meanings.
    And I don't avoid gay people to associate with, maybe they avoid me:)

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  43. I haven’t tried playing it backwards yet Bacon but surely you’re not suggesting that there is no possibility of your words revealing unintended things? Reading between the lines and that sort of thing – it’s fun if nothing else.

    I do have this suggestion though and that is the gay agenda may be a handy vehicle to attack the fundies from. Those fundies make it oh so easy don’t they?


    What two consenting adults do with their sex life falls outside the realm of morality: how can something be immoral when no-one gets hurt or harmed? -Gert

    Is it possible that this is not true? Even what one person does by himself can have harmful consequences. Fantasizing constantly about perverse sexual acts could eventually spill out into the real world and harm real people if it is not kept suppressed or just not thought about at all. I’m no expert but I reckon sexual criminals do a lot of fantasizing before committing their crimes. Actually Jesus warned that it was as bad to think about adultery as it was to do it – not that I’m not a militant Atheist, it’s just interesting reading between the lines again.

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  44. Your total post is a transparentstatement of a homophobe not very well disguised.

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  45. AA:
    This is an interesting way to start this post Bacon. That’s a pretty grand word ‘champion’ and then the admission that you don’t associate with gay people and a quick and really quite unnecessary defence of your manliness by claiming you are 100% hetero (although the word bone gave me a Freudian speed wobble).
    Oh, I do this all the time: I'm straight, but I also 'champion' gay rights. I can't speak for BEAJ, but I do it to make it crystal clear that I have no hidden agendas.
    Fantasizing constantly about perverse sexual acts could eventually spill out into the real world and harm real people if it is not kept suppressed or just not thought about at all.
    Wow, you're right, you're no expert.
    Most deviants (in re: perversity - Dahmer, case in point) actually don't just suddenly explode after years of suppression. There's usually a long sequence of events, from minor to major, culminating into the objective. They mostly start small (Dahmer had a history of torturing animals & putting their heads on sticks in puberty), & graduate by degrees to the final act.
    I might suggest you attend Allegories Anonymous - reading between the lines can prove hazardous to 1's street cred. ;)

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  46. Well, it’s not a crime for a man to feel a little bit phobic when surrounded by amorous nancy boys - or is it?

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  47. actually don't just suddenly explode after years of suppression.....


    Isn't that the point I was making?

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  48. BEAJ and KA
    Champions of the gay cause!

    The MLK and Malcolm X of the gay cause – LOL.

    I never thought I would be siding with Rickey.
    BTW nice uniform Rickey – bit gay though.

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  49. It seems you avoid socialisation with most people since we know you hardly ever leave the house. You have your wife pick up the order out pizza & Chinese. You have a thing for One Hung Lo at the Asian Delight.

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  50. The arguments above are not convincing.

    Homosexuals don't procreate, and that is in direct contradiction to the theory of evolution. That gay people have been known to have sex with women shows that their supposed intrinsic gayness, supposedly caused by their biology, isn't innate afterall.

    If there was empirical proof of a homosexual gene, it would be a direct refutation of Darwin's theory of natural selection, and ironically a victory for the creationists. Millions of years of the struggle to survive would have wiped it out millenia ago.

    We need to be clear what we mean by natural. That incest, bestiality, sodomy, rape, and pedophilia occur show that these acts are natural in a sense that the events are part of the physical universe. But in other sense, they are unnatural, in that they are not natural end of man in the sense of his wellbeing. If anything, given how all of the great civilizations have more in common when it comes to Husband and Wife than they have in disagreement, it would be fair and proper to call acts such as sodomy *deviant* as compared to the norm.

    Just because a person has a vice doesn't make them evil. Adulterers and alcoholics, like homosexuals, can still be outstanding citizens. But just because no one is perfect doesn't mean we should call vices virtues either.

    Fans of gay marriage ultimately must base their argument on hedonism-- gays are just having fun, they aren't hurting anybody, and there is nothing rotten about what they are doing. But why should anyone care? Well, if one is a shameless hedonist to begin with, then it becomes obvious-- homosexuals, with the debauched lifestyle associated with them, are *mascots* to the decadent of mind.

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  51. Jason are you saying that hermaphrodites are a direct refutation of evolution? Or are you saying hermaphrodites don't exist.

    If homosexuality occurred in fetal development of a high percentage of fetuses, you would have a point, but because it occurs in 5-10% of the population it is completely consistent in that it doesn't hinder human species survival.

    There is scientific evidence as cited. You can ignore the evidence if you wish, but I don't see how the evidence is a victory for creationists.

    There could be many factors, pregnancy drugs, environment and genes that cause estrogen or progesteron imbalances in a small percentage of pregnancy situations that cause a brain of someone with male genitals to be attracted to men. It seems completely plausible to me.

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  52. Jason, here is another study that doesn't play into creationists hands either:

    Womb environment 'makes men gay'
    Ultrasound
    Scientists think antibodies produced in the womb may be responsible
    A man's sexual orientation may be determined by conditions in the womb, according to a study.

    Previous research had revealed the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to be gay, but the reason for this phenomenon was unknown.

    But a Canadian study has shown that the effect is most likely due to biological rather than social factors.

    The research is published in the journal of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

    Professor Anthony Bogaert from Brock University in Ontario, Canada, studied 944 heterosexual and homosexual men with either "biological" brothers, in this case those who share the same mother, or "non-biological" brothers, that is, adopted, step or half siblings.


    These results support a prenatal origin to sexual orientation development in men
    Professor Anthony Bogaert

    He found the link between the number of older brothers and homosexuality only existed when the siblings shared the same mother.

    The amount of time the individual spent being raised with older brothers did not affect their sexual orientation.

    'Maternal memory'

    Writing in the journal, Professor Bogaert said: "If rearing or social factors associated with older male siblings underlies the fraternal birth-order effect [the link between the number of older brothers and male homosexuality], then the number of non-biological older brothers should predict men's sexual orientation, but they do not.

    "These results support a prenatal origin to sexual orientation development in men."

    He suggests the effect is probably the result of a "maternal memory" in the womb for male births.

    A woman's body may see a male foetus as "foreign", he says, prompting an immune reaction which may grow progressively stronger with each male child.

    The antibodies created may affect the developing male brain.

    In an accompanying article, scientists from Michigan State University said: "These data strengthen the notion that the common denominator between biological brothers, the mother, provides a prenatal environment that fosters homosexuality in her younger sons."

    "But the question of mechanism remains."

    Andy Forrest, a spokesman for gay rights group Stonewall, commenting on this and other studies, said: "Increasingly, credible evidence appears to indicate that being gay is genetically determined rather than being a so-called lifestyle choice.

    "It adds further weight to the argument that lesbian and gay people should be treated equally in society and not discriminated against for something that's just as inherent as skin colour."

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  53. "read my link to how I define moral. Pedophelia and beastiality do not fit into my definition of morality, but sex between two or more willing same sex adults does."

    I wasn't saying these were moral simply hat they are natural.I dont think he two are the same thing.

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  54. AA:
    Well, it’s not a crime for a man to feel a little bit phobic when surrounded by amorous nancy boys - or is it?
    Not unless, like George on Seinfeld, you "feel something down there." ;)
    So which 1 am I? MLK or Malc X? Hehehehe.

    Jason:
    Homosexuals don't procreate, and that is in direct contradiction to the theory of evolution. That gay people have been known to have sex with women shows that their supposed intrinsic gayness, supposedly caused by their biology, isn't innate after all.
    What, are you a Skinner man? You're leaving the societal implications of homosexuality over the last 1700 years. It's been repressed, & addressed as a mental disorder by 'civilization' for centuries. Small wonder gay men feel impelled to live the 'normal' life.
    If there was empirical proof of a homosexual gene, it would be a direct refutation of Darwin's theory of natural selection, and ironically a victory for the creationists. Millions of years of the struggle to survive would have wiped it out millenia ago.
    No, that's not so. There are always 'deviations' in behavior. Bisexual men have children as well.
    & recessive genes skip generations anyways. It's hypothetically possible that it's a form of population control. If the female side of the family is genetically disposed towards prolificacy, then it's not such a wide leap to assume that 1 or more children could inherit said gene.
    & if it's a choice? Then it's a choice, pure & simple.
    The biggest reason that gay folks are promiscuous (IMHO) & engage in 'underground' behavior, is the lack of acceptance & the oppression of the participants.

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  55. I think the “it’s natural, sheep do it” argument is easily refuted. After all there are examples in nature of all sorts of activity like, murder, cross species sex, incest, cannibalism, infanticide, eating vomit, eating faeces and so on that are not justifiable just because animals do it. I can’t see a judge being too impressed with the argument that the Great Gabong of Upper Niger does it so it’s ok for me too. He would expect you to have an advanced level of self control, awareness of responsibility within society and a knowledge of the law that animals could not possibly possess. Also if you could do whatever animals did then you might be treated like an animal and have your organs harvested or something.

    Homosexual impulses may be more powerful than some people’s self control due to its origin being physical rather than learned. I question whether it is a total on or off thing. It seems more a matter of degrees of homosexuality or interrupted sexual maturation. The most manly of men is probably 2% homosexual.(figure plucked from he air) – stranded for years on a desert island with long haired Adonis like young men he might be swayed.

    One of the only ideas I picked up from One Cosmos was that group neuroses bind societies together. So much of what we do is deeply neurotic. It may not be entirely rational and it could for instance lead to concerns as to what goes on in other people’s bedrooms. This type of neurosis is extraordinarily powerful – the wrong clothes, odd mannerisms, just slightly different behaviour could lead to dire consequences even in the most civilized of societies. These neuroses are evolving all the time although it probably isn’t possible or even desirable to eradicate them all together. I think the champions of the gay cause are fighting a powerful group neurosis however there are strong evolutionary reasons for their existence.

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  56. Queerdom does not follow the natural scientific scheme of things, oh corpulent alopecic one.

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  57. Well, personally I'm astonished that a post that's intended to bash the gay bashers attracts so many... gay bashers!

    Homophobes use all kind of rationalisations for their ridiculous belief-system, so that they do not have to bear any responsibility for the stigmatization of homosexuality.

    Why still today the activity of consensual, gay sex which hurts nobody at all, is still such a bone of contention with so many remains baffling and dismaying.

    I certainly blame the completely hypocritical attitude of the three monotheisms to a large extent: they have legitimised homophobia, even made it one of their central tenets, something the believers MUST accept. Bigots will be bigots...

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  58. I'm interested Gert if you think I am a gay basher? Even though you can deduce from what I have written that I rate myself as 2% gay. It wouldn't be very interesting if we all said the same thing now would it? I think the topic should be discussed without knee jerk reactions like calling people bigots and bashers. In a previous thread I was called insane for stating that being gay was not an ideal trait of manliness.

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  59. i'm sure you've figured it out, beaj, but i just thought i'd reveal your anonymous commentor's identity.

    his ip# is 66.214.232.65.

    KEvron

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  60. AA:
    Even though you can deduce from what I have written that I rate myself as 2% gay.
    The 2% solution? Where've I heard that phrase before?
    It wouldn't be very interesting if we all said the same thing now would it? I think the topic should be discussed without knee jerk reactions like calling people bigots and bashers.
    Would 'partial bigot' be less of an expletive? That's what I tell those folks who say something along the lines of, 'Hey, they can do whatever they want, just not get married, or adopt kids'. Pretty much akin to 'Hey, I got lots of black friends, but I'd never let my daughter marry 1'.
    In a previous thread I was called insane for stating that being gay was not an ideal trait of manliness.
    Were you? I don't recall that...

    kevron:
    Hmmm...I wonder if he'd be willing to negotiate a mortgage for 1 of us heretics? Money's money, after all.
    I'm just throwing that out there. I don't own a home.

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  61. 2% gay? Does that mean every one out of 50 times you have sex it is with a man? And one out of 50 times you masturbate, you are thinking about a young thin Marlon Brando?

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  62. Bacon, no it doesn't mean that. It means that all inter persoanl relationships whether they be with male or female have a sexual element. This is why you may feel repulsion or admiration for someone of the same sex. Homosexuality is not just about the sexual act - I thought you knew that. One could be homosexual without ever having had anal intercourse with someone of the same sex.

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  63. AA, I know what you meant, I just wanted to get you to picutre a young thin Marlon Brando in your head.

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  64. AA:
    One could be homosexual without ever having had anal intercourse with someone of the same sex.
    I read somewhere that the AI thing isn't tops on the list. They usually find...other methods more satisfactory.

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  65. AA:

    "I think the topic should be discussed without knee jerk reactions like calling people bigots and bashers. In a previous thread I was called insane for stating that being gay was not an ideal trait of manliness."

    Unfortunately there really is no other word for bigots and bashers. If you read what some people think about homosexuality then it should not come as a surprise that they get the epithets of which they are deserving. I don't think you are a gaybasher though.

    And why is being gay not an ideal trait of manliness? Try and define manliness. Because I'm not gay but probably not very "manly" in your eyers...

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  66. I realise now that Bacon was being humorous earlier.

    Gay fearing heterosexual males seem to focus on the AI aspect rather too much. There are probably some good reasons for that as heterosexual males are preoccupied with being givers rather than receivers. To take on the sexual role of wife would be unacceptably submissive to many - especially unacceptable to the fundamentalists of the Christian and Moslem religions. This seems to be pretty much all they obsess about actually.

    While indulging in AI is not necessarily essential for the homosexual, after all around 50% are lesbian, the opposite may well be true. That men who indulge in AI with other men may not be ‘real’ homosexuals. For example it’s hard to imagine the Greek warriors as the limp-wristed, mincing, gentle individuals we see on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. I suspect their penchant for pedarasty was driven by mostly heterosexual urges, educational culture, warrior bonding, an element of misogyny, safe sex (no pregnancy) and limited access to the good looking girls who were possibly all locked up in enclosures for breeding with the alpha males. Younger men share a lot of features with women and it was considered abhorrent in Greek society to‘do it’ with mature males. The Greeks in general appear to have been a bit uncomfortable with it although I also suspect that the Romans had a lot to do with over emphasising its influence in Greek society.

    Whatever the truth, we may never know for sure as scientific certainty can only come from repeating experiments with people. Perhaps the Nazis could have found out the truth – I’m sure it was a subject of great interest to them.

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  67. Thanks Gert, I know what you mean about some people's comments and I wouldn’t want to be lumped in with them.

    And why is being gay not an ideal trait of manliness?

    Manliness can only be measured against the predominantly held beliefs in a given society. As social mores are mostly neurotic in nature they can often be hard to defend. To be more precise then, gayness is not an ideal trait of manliness within the Judeao-Christian-British society I was brought up in. Other societies may well be completely different.

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  68. Why do you think they call them queers?

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  69. Interestingly, the link to this site, was provided to me by my first grade classmate who is straight and very supportive of my gay lifestyle. He's the greatest.

    Had it not been for him, I would have not have known about it and obviously, would not have had the pleasure of making this post.

    In response to the poster who said what a pity that gays are not posting here, I think that there are many people in the gay community, who would be very interested in reading the comments made by the author, as well as those of other bloggers, both gay and straight. I will be forwarding it to my entire email list of over 75 people.

    All to often, the gay community is depicted in a negative light by the religious right, the fundies and numerous other groups who really have nothing to fear from us, but fear itself. The observation that those who protest the most, are usually the ones who themselves are hiding in the closet, is probably 100% on target. Rev. Haggard, is a good example. Shakespeare hit the nail squarely on the head, when he said, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much." ;-)

    Personally, I feel that the fact that all sexuality, heterosexual and homosexual, is being openly discussed in our society today, is a very healthy. Keeping it in the closet, as a personal and private matter, as some have suggested, has obviously done nothing to educate ourselves about the nature of being human, and has only served to perpetuate the myths, misconceptions, misinformation, bias and bigotry that gets handed down from generation to generation.

    I believe that when there is a good healthy, open and honest dialogue going on between all people of difference, only then, can we begin to celebrate and appreciate the diversity of all humankind.

    My heartfelf thanks to the author of this blog, and all the great people who have contributed to it, in one manner of another.

    Communication is the way to understanding, acceptance and peace.

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  70. Charles, you are welcome. Oh, and you write very well for someone in the first grade:)

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