April 17, 2006

My Case For Israel, As An Atheist

First, let me start off with a quote by the founder of the Zionist Movement: "When I remember thee in days to come, O Jerusalem, it will not be with pleasure. The musty deposits of 2,000 years of inhumanity, intolerance, and uncleanliness lie in the foul-smelling alleys".... The amiable dreamer of Nazareth has only contributed to increasing the hatred.... What superstition and fanaticism on every side!"
-- Theodor Herzl, after a visit to Jerusalem in 1898, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Herzl was in fact an Atheist. An Atheist is someone who doesn't buy into the existence of God, as there is no proof of a God, or 2 Gods, or 500 Gods. Unfortunately, I find many Atheists out there today try to take it a step further and actually are against any conflicts on this planet that have any relation to a religious group or religious values. And many Far Left Atheists tend to believe that we are all humans deep down, and we should all be treated the same way, regardless of our actions.
This is where I break off from the Atheist Moonbats. They tend to forget why they became Atheists. Atheists are supposed to be the ultimate Realists. If it is real, we believe it
(Thanks to the Church of Reality for the concept). Well guess what?, I believe in Israel because it is real, and so is the justification of her existence.
The Zionist movement goes back to the late 1800's in Europe, where "Herzl concluded that anti-Semitism was a stable and immutable factor in human society, which assimilation did not solve....He saw the future state as a model social state, basing his ideas on the European model of the time, of a modern enlightened society. It would be neutral and peace-seeking, and of a secular nature.... He envisioned a new society that was to rise in the Land of Israel on a cooperative basis utilizing science and technology in the development of the Land." (source:Jewish Virtual Library)
Herzl was in fact desperate for a Jewish state after visiting the Jews of Russia, and actually pushed for at least a temporary state in Uganda. He died in 1904, before any such decision was made, but then again, reality took over. Just because Herzl was Godless, didn't mean that the majority of Jews were Godless, and Israel was in fact the birthplace of Judaism. The region of Palestine made sense as the location of the Jewish homeland.

80% of where Israel is situated today was barren in 1900. No inhabitants and most of it did not have land owners. The population in the late 1800's was quite small too, only around 500,000 Arabs and less than 50,000 Jews, and most of the Arabs were farmers, really unaffected by who was running the show. And 500,000 isn't a lot of people considering the population is more than 6 million in Israel today.

Now lets fast forward to WW2. The Holocaust. Yep, Herzl hit the nail on the head and his worst nightmare scenario was realized. The realization of Israel as a Jewish majority state, which had been lobbied for since the early 1900's was now fast tracked. This is where todays Arab rhetoric really gets me. 70% of the Partitioned state was British controlled. It was UNOWNED. Jews owned 6-8.8% depending on what source you read, and Arabs owned up to 20% (only just over 3% by those Arabs who actually lived there). 20% ownership does not mean it was Arab land.
The UN wasn't giving away anyones OWNED land. The Partition was made so that there would be two states. It strategically made it so that the existing Jewish population would be a majority within Jewish state lines. No Arab had to leave or be displaced. The only thing is that 400,000 Arabs would have to live under Jewish rule instead of British or Turkish rule.

The Arabs started a war immediately. They didn't accept the Partition. They wanted to control 100% of the Middle East. Again, my old friend Reality steps in. When you make bad choices in your life regardless of who told you what, there are consequences beyond your control. The Arabs who left, mostly did so because they were anticipating an Arab victory. They made their choice and lost. Had the Arabs won any war, I wonder how many Jews there would be in Israel today. Not very many, and those living there would be Dhimmis at best.
Of course, these tensions coupled with Israel's success caused around 800,000 Jews to leave Arab countries without compensation in the early 1950's, a fair trade off for the 500,000 Arabs who left Israel. Why didn't the Arab nations take in the Palestinian refugees? Why is it that of the 50 million refugees that were created since WW2, that they only people who are still whining about returning to homes, that are long gone, are the Palestinians? How many Palestinians who were displaced in 1948 are still alive today? If my grandfather made a decision to leave or was even kicked out of a place in the 1940's, I would be laughing at the idea that I would feel the need to return there, especially if he didn't own the property.
If you look at the formation of any country on this planet, none began with the acceptance of 100% of the population. New countries tend to piss off a lot of the inhabitants. Most countries weren't formed as legally as Israel was formed, most borders today reflect the spoils of war and invasion. Look at Arabia, Paliphiles conveniently forget that most of Arabia was conquered by Arabs from around the 7th to 10th Centuries. Arabia is as much stolen land as Israel is.

Israel has been on the defensive since her birth. The Arabs have had numerous chances to end the conflict. And yes, their land offers have gotten smaller every time, rightfully they should. They keep proving that Israel has to defend herself because they just won't stop. And nobody gets do-overs when they lose a war.

Then you have the myth of US Aid. My contention is that US Aid is the only thing that has kept the Palestinians alive. It is all political, it started off as a Cold War biproduct, and now is mostly to do with oil relations with other Arab states. Imagine what the US would do if Mexico sponsored and applauded suicide bombers to come to Texas in an attempt to get "their land" back. Mexico would be a giant parking lot. Israel existed fine without US support that in all reality became a factor in the early 70's.

No country is perfect. The settlements were a mistake. Although I believe them to be a Red Herring. But certain politicians have made such mistakes throughout history. The Reality is that many settlements today are unmovable (too costly economically), as some are medium sized cities. But there were no settlements prior to 1967, and the PLO was formed in 1964. Hamas has stated that it really doesn't matter, as retreat from the settlements would just be phase one of their plan to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Jews leaving Gaza didn't improve Israel-Palestinian relations one bit.

I've been critical when it comes to the Religious Settlers and their Fundamental mentality. However, their numbers are substantially low. Israel has a very large secular population. In fact, only 22% of the Jews in Israel regularly attend Synagogue on Saturday morning, and over 50% never do. Cultural traditions like Seders are practiced by up to 95%. Atheism/Agnoticism is estimated to be around 25%, but as high as 37% depending on the survey.

Atheists must realize that there are people out there who wish to destroy our freedoms. The Christian Fundies can be considered in the mix, however, we can still pay to listen to Howard Stern if we wish, and abortions though frowned upon don't get you thrown in jail (yet). I'm not concerned with Christian Fundies, they can be stabilized, and in the long run, they are a dying culture. As more scientific discoveries come out, future generations will look at these people as kooks. You can't continue to argue against Reality, in even a semi free society.
It is the radical Islamists that are the major threat. Their culture is one of hate and intolerance. Although somewhat improving, the scientific and technology that comes out of Islamic states (run by the radicals more or less) is next to nothing. They want to take over the world. Just look at Gaza. Do you remember any Palestinian saying "oh boy, this is great, we have our home back, now we can grow our own Arab state"? Of course not. They just looked at it as a start towards their ultimate goal of destroying Israel. Then what? They have no plan. The Arab countries know this. They use Israel as a smokescreen to give their oppressed masses a reason to hate the West( a reason to live) and not the rich Princes of Arabia with their palaces and 30 wives.
If a terrorist has a nuke, they will use it. Common sense is out the door with anyone who thinks using suicide bombs against innocent individuals is a good thing.

Voting Hamas was the last straw as far as I'm concerned when it comes to sympathy for the Palestinians. The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss and opportunity. I don't buy into the rhetoric that they were fed up with Fatah (who incidentally was a major reason Israel pulled out of Gaza). 54% of Palestinians voted for Hamas, and 54% of Palestinians support suicide bombings. Nuff said.

Israel is unfortunately still needed as a refuge against anti-semitism. Just look at what has happened recently in France. At least now, Jews from anywhere in the planet can go to Israel if they feel they are persecuted too much or if they feel persecution is getting worse. If Israel existed prior to the Holocaust, who knows what the end result would be. I doubt the numbers of Jews who would have perished would have been that great. Maybe Hitler would have dealt with Jews slightly differently if Israel existed. Maybe. And lets not forget, that Hitler didn't care if a Jew believed in God or what degree that belief was. He murdered Jews because of their ethnicity. The anti-semites that infest the earth today don't care if Jews believe in God or not either, in probably almost every instance.

One day, whether it is 500 years from now or 2000 years from now, Atheists will be the majority. We are a majority in Denmark and Sweden, pretty much today. The trick is, we have to make to that time. Radical Islam, if left alone, will not let that happen. They must be REFORMED. And they will not reform themselves on their own. That is the REALITY of the situation. Israel is on the right side.

Now let us look at the size of Israel, the country that causes all this commotion:

Israel is 1/649th the size of all the Arab countries put together. They have 1/49th the population of all Arab countries put together.
Their GDP is 1/11th of all the Arab countries put together (must be all that Israeli oil).

If a complete cure to most cancers came out of Israel would you be surprised?
How about if it came from Lebanon or Syria?


  1. queue Bernarda spew in

  2. Yeah Lya I mentioned it, and I forgive anyone for not reading this whole rant word for word because it is longer than I wanted it to be:

    "Of course, these tensions coupled with Israel's success caused around 800,000 Jews to leave Arab countries without compensation in the early 1950's, a fair trade off for the 500,000 Arabs who left Israel."

    I put this somewhere in the middle.

    Chimp, I'm trying to isolate the cancer that is Benana to just one location as opposed to everywhere he/she/it decides to spew rhetoric. Hopefully, he/she/it will comply.

  3. While it would be nice, I doubt Bernarda will comply. It seems she feels that Israel is responnsbile for all of the world's problems and therefore will continue to make post jacking comments so as to demonstrate her deeply held paranoia in regards to this line of (mis)reasoning.

  4. Good write-up, Bacon. We have to face the reality that the world's Arabs and, increasingly, non-Arab Muslims use Israel as a lightning rod to deflect criticism of their social backwardness, poverty, education underachievement, and other phenomena of which they are ashamed. The map of the Middle East is a persuasive demonstration of the disproportionate attention which Israel, and Jews by association, have gotten in the Muslim world. You can author a book on psychology just by studying the Arab obsession with Jews.


  5. I thought you said bloggers should make their entries brief. :)

  6. A small part I think I can fill in from the late 1800's to WWI, is that concentrations of Jews slowly increased in the area that would become Israel because Jews systematically purchased the admittedly desolate areas from the Ottoman Turks. The turks were happy to sell to the Jews because they finally gained tenets who would pay taxes to keep the Ottoman Empire afloat. The Jewish settlers of that region were greatly preferred to the more nomadic Palestians who moved in, farmed, and moved out again. This kind of agricultural practice made bad land even worse. The Jews were sedentary, used progressive farming techniques, and "paid the rent". Nothing was "stolen".

  7. "Then you have the myth of US Aid. My contention is that US Aid is the only thing that has kept the Palestinians alive."

    I am not trying to negate that opinion, but, Boy...I sure wish more people thought like that...then the US would be the "toast of gay Pari and Berlin"

    Instead of garnering the same denigrating, dehumanizing epithets the Jews saw before WWII. Especially resonant is the "blood-suckers" imagery used by Der Speigel today, is on par with Der Sturmer of the 1930's.

  8. 1. "An Atheist is someone who doesn't buy into the existence of God, as there is no proof of a God, or 2 Gods, or 500 Gods.". I understand the first part and respect it, but you can't say that there is no proof of a God, because there isn't a proof of the inexistence of God either.

    2. I agree, Israel must be a secular state, but with majority of Jews, religious or not, and with a great manifestation of religion without entering in politics. I don't like that the orthodox running the show, but I understand why.

    3. The arab concept of land ownership is different than ours. If they ever conquer that land is their forever. That's why many say that Portugal and Spain (Al-Andalus) are islamic territory.

    4. "Arabia is as much stolen land as Israel is.". Absolutely correct, but I imagine that because we live in the Present the Past is a far away memory.

  9. I love the pure racism of this part of Bacon's blog. More or less saying as all zionists say, "the Pals are Arabs so they can go live in any other Arab land because, without justification, we want their land".

    Zionism is not only racism, it is the equivalent of nazism. Since zionism was invented before nazism, I regard the latter as just an offshoot of the former. Hitler may have read Herzl before he set up his ideology.

    If you don't believe me, see his own words:


    Herzl was a typical white European racist imperialist of the 19th century. "We have the right to take what land we like from the darkies" was his leitmotif.

    In his posthumously published diaries, he gives his opinion that Israel extended from Egypt to the Euphrates. Of course during his public speeches he never mentioned that.

    On the question of land and population there are no number of resources to expose the falsehoods propagated by Bacon--and all zionist mythologists for that matter.



    "Whatever became of the slogan: A people without a land returns to land without a people? The simple truth was that Palestine was not an empty land, and the Jews were only a small minority of its population. In the days of the empire building, the Western powers had dismissed natives as an inconsequential factor in determining whether or not to settle a territory with immigrants. Even after the [1st] world war, the concept of self-determination . . . . was still reserved exclusively for the developed world." (Michael Bar-Zohar, p. 45-46)"


    There are tons of other things I could say and quotes I can give. But this is enough for now. A beginning of an effort to counter the gross lies of zionists, at least those who know what it really is, and to counter the abysmal ignorance about the subject by people like our host.

  10. No idiot, I'm saying that it was never Arab land. 20% does not equal 100%.

    The rest of your crap is crap. Herzl actually didn't think there would be a problem with the Arabs because he gave them too much credit. He thought they would recognize the how well the Jews influenced the are in the late 1800's.

    Herzl died in 1904 and was still lobbying for Uganda around the time of his death.

    Zionism isn't about racism, or kicking Arabs out. It is about a Jewish homeland to escape anti-semitism. You retarded moron.

  11. Well done. I especially like the ending:

    "Israel is 1/649th the size of all the Arab countries put together. They have 1/49th the population of all Arab countries put together.
    Their GDP is 1/11th of all the Arab countries put together (must be all that Israeli oil).

    If a complete cure to most cancers came out of Israel would you be surprised?
    How about if it came from Lebanon or Syria?"

  12. Obviously watcher and bacon have not bothered to consult the sites I gave them.

    Another example:

    "These aspects are important to a history of Israel, because the Zionists could never have created the Jewish state by their own effort. The rise of Israel often seems to me a classic rebuttal of Marxist or other determinist theories of history, for it was very much a matter of luck - the state emerged through two windows that fortuitously opened in the international firmament. The Balfour Declaration in 1917 was the first. Thanks largely to Herzl and his successor as the international leader of the Zionists, Chaim Weizmann, the Jewish nationalists got themselves organized and into action on the diplomatic scene a good 10 years before their Arab equivalents. Had the Arabs got moving just a few years earlier and had they been in a position to put their case effectively to the British Government in 1915-16, the Balfour Declaration would never have been issued. As it was, the Arabs made their first diplomatic impact only in 1918, and they quickly produced modification in British policy. But it was then too late for Britain to withdraw the promise made by Balfour, which became the title deed to the Jewish state.

    Again, in the period immediately after 1945, the Zionists were extremely fortunate that President Roosevelt, who was turning against them, was replaced by President Truman, who had his own reasons for supporting Jewish aspirations. Even so, American backing for Israel in 1947-48 was the last idealistic luxury the American Government permitted itself before the Realpolitik of the cold war took over. Had the crisis come a year or two later, the American response would have been much less positive."


  13. Nobody is going to go to your links. Links are just to back up the crap you write. If you have something to spew, spew it.

    Who cares that Jews got lucky or made their own luck in forming Israel. The same is true with every nation on this planet.

    Israel exists and is the only thing worth anything in the middle east.

  14. Thanks GLO, we differ only that I still think revenge is killing is OK and can act as a future deterrence and also provide closure for families affected. Revenge killing for child rapist/murderers is high up on my approval list.
    I really think you offering tremendous insight here. I do have a few visitors on this page from Israel who may be able to shed more light on your questions, but I will attempt to answer.
    Israel at this time is forced to have a majority of Jews. To me, and I'm not into the religious justifications at all, Israel exists as a refuge for Jews anywhere in the world to come if anti-semitism rears its ugly head anywhere else in the world.
    Jews for the most part want to be left alone (the religious). The secular Jews (close to majority, if not majority), are just as Lefty as you for the most part, with the exception of terror.
    Jews do not conquer land or force conversions or even want anyone who doesn't sincerely want to convert to Judaism.
    Supremacy? I won't be PC here. I usually am not any ways, but I am proud to be of an ethnicity who has a slightly higher IQ than the norm, and whose people tend to overachieve.
    Of course there are reasons. Years and years of persecution have affected our genes. The smart ones for the most part have figured out how to survive, OK, some of the funny ones like me got off too probably because my ancestors made their potential murderers laugh too much to kill them. They were spared.
    That is why Jews tend to be either comics or doctors.

  15. Hey GLO, I wrote the message at 17:00 EST directed to Bernanda, not you. You must have posted while I was typing mine.
    Sorry for the confusion.

  16. "Israel exists and is the only thing worth anything in the middle east." Israel is complete dogshit, and worth exactly that.

    We ain't gonna look at your links, you sez. Not even the book written by proto-nazi Herzl that I posted? OK, if you don't want to know what Herzl sez.

    You also don't want to know what all sorts of other proto-nazi zionists like Weizman and Ben-Gurion sez. There are quotes by them in the links I gave.

    Insult me as much as you want, but heaven forbid that you should ever actually discuss one of the issues I brought up.

    I think that maybe God's LO is a bit more open-minded than you and may actually investigate the issue.

  17. Bernanda, if you have a relevant quote to put up here, lets have it.
    I'm not interested in going through mounds of your crap. Just post the most relevant crap you have.

  18. No, your only interested in spreading your own uninformed crap. I gave you one or two quotes and the links. Are you too cowardly to read them?

    Here's another:

    In his Complete Diaries, Vol. II. p. 711, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, said that the area of the Jewish State stretches: "From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates." The "Brook of Egypt" may be another lesser waterway about 100 miles East of the Nile. Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared in his testimony to the UN Special Committee of Enquiry on 9 July 1947: "The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon."

    The Revisionist Zionists, an ultra-nationalist Zionist group, openly stated that the establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine was impossible without violence and the forcible transfer of the indigenous population. When war broke out between Britain and Germany in 1939, Avraham Stern argued that the British were the main enemy. His "Stern Gang" was a secret Zionist organization that operated in Palestine under the British mandate. It carried out attacks against both the British and the Arabs. The British killed Stern in February 1942. Stern’s "National Revival Principles" proclaimed a Jewish state from the Nile to the Euphrates. Later named Lehi, the group was dissolved in 1948. One of the three leaders of the Stern Group was Yitzhak Shamir, who became prime minister in 1983 and whose tenure in the highest office in Israel was second only to Ben Gurion. But Revisionists in later years viewed the Sinai, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and southern Lebanon in strategic terms, not historic ones. In 1989 Shamir called Syrian leader's Hafiz al-Asad talk on the subject of "from the Nile to the Euphrates" to be "sheer nonsense."


  19. It really is insignificant what Herzl wrote in his diary supposedly.
    He never made those thoughts public and I can only find your quote on Arab rhetoric sites, so I tend not to believe it.

    Here is what Herzl said in public :In The Jewish State, Herzl envisioned that diplomatic activity would be the primary method for attaining the Jewish State and he called for the organized transfer of Jewish communities to the new state. Of the location of the state, Herzl said, "We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by public opinion."

    He was an Atheist. He just wanted a safe place for Jews to live and die. The fact that he was considering Uganda until the day he died, makes your points about him meaningless Bernanda.

    But keep throwing lies. It is enjoyable.

  20. God's LO, original zionism is supposed to be secular. But it has all the hallmarks of a religion. So, a religion without god.

    Nowadays, the religious folk have taken it over.

    Bacon is a laugh because he just looks at the source of information and not at the information itself. Any of the information I give at specific links can undoubtedly be found at other more jewish links for him.

    But even that is not enough. Because even when I identify jewish links, he denigrates because he fears they will disagree with his mindset. But there is no way to contest what proto-nazi Herzl said.

    Another one:

    "One of the earliest warnings about the Arab problem came from the Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg), who wrote in his 1891 essay "Truth from Eretz Israel" that in Palestine "it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", and moreover:

    From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place. "


  21. Bernanda, most of Israel was desert, in fact Tel Aviv was built in 1910 and was built on barren land.
    You are such an idiot. You have no idea what I'm saying in my posts to you. You completely miss the points. Do you take meds? You should. There is something wrong with you.

  22. GLO, Israel was formed just as "illegally" as Jordan was.
    Israel is on the defensive. The Muslim Arabs are enemies, it is apparent. If Israel was surrounded by Christians, there would be no problem.
    The society is secular, and the secularists are still in control.
    Have Bertranda explain the Gaza withdrawal to you.
    Israel is doing an amazing expanding act right now when they have done nothing in the past years except get smaller.

  23. GLO, your original reply is so good, you should put it into a stand alone post. I'm serious.

  24. Man, I should hook you folks up with the wacky Christian, white-power psychos I've been fucking with lately... They'd loooooooove you guys.

  25. "I still think revenge is killing is OK and can act as a future deterrence and also provide closure for families affected."

    "I am proud to be of an ethnicity who has a slightly higher IQ than the norm"

    such a shame. i used to enjoy your weblog.

    you may be right about israel, you may be wrong. either way, you are an idiot, and a bigot.

    good day, sir.

  26. Wow Caligata, if you take a look at the next story I posted and you can honestly say that this guy shouldn't be killed, then that is your problem.

    As far as the IQ thing goes, it is a fact that the average IQ for a Jew is around 107. And it is a fact that I am proud of it as it leads to the fact that Jews tend to be over represented in the field of medical discoveries for example. If you were in Mensa, would you be proud that you were?

    VP, I'm not sure how to take that comment.

  27. If the average IQ for Jews is as you say, that still doesn't give any information about a specific individual.

    Some individuals in the sample space will have a higher score and some will have a lower score--even a much lower score.

    You seem to be one that brings that average down quite seriously.

    It doesn't make any sense to talk about the average for "a Jew". A sample space of one individual is far too small. An individual has his personal score, not an average.

  28. Gawd, you are such a moron Bernarda.
    Pathetic. Everything point I make flies over your head. Who the hell talking about individuals. I'm talking average. Sure there are Jews with IQ's in the 90's and there are Jews with IQ's in the 150's too.
    The average IQ of an Arab in Arabia is 83. And there are smart Arabs too. Even Arabs who are geniuses.
    The point is that Jews on average score higher on IQ tests. Look up what the word average really means.
    For someone who tells me to read as many books as you do, assuming you've read them, you most likely don't understand most of anything you read. It goes hand in hand with you supporting the worthless Palestinians and your hatred of Israel. You are a fool.

    I'm not going to dumb this blog down to get you to understand what I'm saying.

  29. I'm sorry, but when I say this, I am talking about the majority.
    I don't know if you've seen the latest survey, but here it is.

    I consider anyone who supports suicide bombings of innocent people to be worthless. If this makes me a racist hater, then I am a racist hater.

  30. Bern,

    Let us be honest. You hate Jews. I am not sure who else you hate but that is evident. When the Jews went to the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea to settle in the 1800's they did so with the ok of the Ottoman Empire. They bought the land from Arab land owners. They did not steal it.

    After WWII the British did as much as they could to stop the influx of Jews into “Palestine” (Palestine is an old Roman name for the area that the British started to use again). Britain split Palestine into two portions, modern day Israel and Jordan. Jordan is 80% indignant original Arab population. So a Palestinian nation already exists. Of course the Jordanians had enough of the Palestinian nonsense in 1972 and kicked them out and the terrorist group “Black September” was started. Than the Palestinians terrorists moved into Lebanon and destroyed that country. When the British left “Palestine” in 1946 they took as many weapons from the Jews as they could. The Muslim nations, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and others invaded. The Arab population left to follow in the wake of the invading armies, except the invading armies lost.

    So do not tell us about the aggression of the Jews or Israelis. For over 2000 years the Jews have not had a homeland. They were persecuted by Christians and Muslims alike. So for once they have a homeland. In Israel the Arabs, Druids and all others are allowed to vote, go to school and enjoy the rights that Jews enjoy. In what Muslim country is the Jew or Christian given this same treatment?

    I think you should try and answer glo question about the Israel today. I am not of the belief that any one has the right to kill others, unless in self defense.

  31. "I'm not going to dumb this blog down to get you to understand what I'm saying."

    You don't need to you, you have already done it to an unsuspected level.

    Hatetaxes, your "hate jews" rhetoric is typical of supporters of Jewish terrorism and war crimes in Palestine.

    The racist Jews in Israel would have no problem there if they hadn't invaded. They wouldn't get their sorry asses blown up if they had stayed away.

  32. I wish all the godforsaken jews in America would make aliyah. Then honest peaceful Americans could avoid getting entangled in WWIII at the behest of jews who are out to steal Palestinean property.

  33. Bernanda, you are just retarded. Jews took a deserted piece of real estate and turned it into something viable. The rest of Arabia stinks to high heaven in comparison.
    Anon, another ignoramous. Palestinian property. LMAO
    You obviously know nothing.

  34. Well, Bacon, do you read books by Israeli writers?

    If you do you might try the book by Tom Segev(born in Jerusalem, so he has a pedigree for you--but an intellectual like you wouldn't care about such details), "1949: The First Israelis".

    What does one find there?

    Aharon Zisling, the minister of agriculture, told the Israeli cabinet on 17 November 1948: "I couldn't sleep all night. I felt that things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here (...) Now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken."

    That was in response to the terrorism, torture, and massacres the Israeli militias used to drive Palestinians from their homes.

    Don't believe me, read the book.

  35. Bernanda, Arabs wouldn't have been driven out in 1948 if they accepted the Jewish ruled state.
    No state on this planet started out with a party.
    Keep living in the past.
    Israel exists, and it bothers you immensely. And I love this fact.

  36. GLO, I don't think there is one Jew or one Israeli who wouldn't bend over backwards for assured peace.
    I don't think it is the Palestinian way. They are stuck on 1947, and they are wrong.
    Have you seen this yet?

    I'm convinced that Bern is an anti-semite. She is from France and it is a disease there.

    One more thing. It took me more than 40 years to figure out "a lot" is two words, and not one:)

  37. It depends on how you want to define Jewish, Homeland and State.
    Israel has Mosques, Churches and Synagogue, but at this time MUST have a Jewish majority.
    Given my main reason for support of Israel as being a final refuge for any Jew or Jews that experience too much anti-semitism anywhere else in the world, the only way to ensure that it remains a refuge is to have a Jewish majority.
    Don't forget, the Jews in Israel have a secular majority and 25-40% are Agnostic/Atheist depending on what survey you look at.
    To me, Fundy Jews and Fundy Christians are a dying breed as long as we are free to be educated properly, science will turn away people from God, it is inevitable.
    I'm not sure I can say the same for Islam....you would know better, but my hunch is no because the education isn't rampant.

    But right now, Israel exists for two reasons, religion and as a refuge.

    I wish anti-semitism would disappear, but it looks like it is getting slightly worse. In fact, the Muslims world wide seem to be justifying Israel's existence more and more each day, by the way I rationalize Israel.

    I hope that answers your question.

  38. Bern,

    Jewish terrorism? When was the last time Israel took a child and strapped bombs to their waist and blew them up? It is a fact that Jews, as the minority, were persecuted in the Muslim countries for centuries. They did not kill people nor did they commit their children to slaughter. The Jews live on a small sliver of land that no one used for centuries. Even before 1948 the Arab population attacked and killed them.

    The Jews did not throw out anyone in 1948, they left. They were asked to stay, they didn’t want to.

    You state that some Jews felt what happened was bad and shameful. That is true some feel that way. We do not shoot them or imprison them. We are happy that they can speak their mind.

    There is a war going on. Some Muslims want the entire world to believe in Allah and that anyone who does not should die. Some like glo would like to live in peace.


    I guess it has passed your vigilance but the Muslim world has been at war with the Europe for about 1400 years. They invaded Spain, North Africa and Constantinople all the way to Hungry. The war you blame on the Jews was started way before Jews had a country. But than you would have to look at the whole history of the war that some Muslims have been fighting for 1400 years.

  39. glo,

    I have a tendency to not write in absolutes. I do not believe the words "all" or "never" to be useful in political discussions. I agree that in today’s world that the people who follow the Muslim religion, in general, seem to be anti-anything non-Muslim. We in the West need to understand that the followers of Islam are not looking for compromise or an understanding among nations. They are looking to make Allah and Islam the religion of the world.

  40. hatetaxes is obviously a radical zionist propagandist.

    "Jewish terrorism? When was the last time Israel took a child and strapped bombs to their waist and blew them up?"

    No, the Jewish terrorists just use U.S. supplied jet planes, and tanks, and automatic weapons, and rockets to murder Palestinians, including over 600 children.

    Jewish terrorists are the ones that attack innocent people with the most sophisticated weapons available. They are war criminals.

    There is also a contradiction between hatetaxes and bacon. bacon says the Palestinians were "driven out", which is correct. hatetaxes gives the zionist lie that they "left".

    No one even in Israel even believes that.

    The problem for bacon, is that he approves of the ethnic cleansing by Jewish terrorists.

  41. I don't say they were driven out. Some were, most left on their own. They listened to the leaders.

    I believe in real history, not the crap you spew Bernanda.

    Oh yeah, Israel exists, and it makes your life miserable. I can only laugh why a French POS is so obsessed.

    But then again, you are the main reason why Israel exists to me. You justify her existence. Keep up the good work.

  42. April 18th, Bacon, "Bernanda, Arabs wouldn't have been driven out in 1948 if they accepted the Jewish ruled state."

    April 19th, Bacon, "I don't say they were driven out."

  43. I was talking about the fact that they were not allowed back. Some were driven out, there was some coercion, but most left on their own.

    That is historical fact. And the driving out occurred after the war began. It makes perfect sense.

  44. I just went back at the post. Again, it is typical of your ilk to not understand what I was saying and to quote me out of context.

    I was replying to specific situations where a few Jews were feeling guilty about driving out some Arabs.

    I admit that happened, but not that much.

    As I stated in my post, it is a historical fact that most Arabs left on their own under the guise that the Arabs were going to win the war.

    And I could bring up Arab quotes to support this, but you've seen them before and they obviously don't fit your agenda so you ignore them.

  45. Bacon, you are either a liar or a moron.

    I gave you links to Jewish and Israeli sources which explain that the Palestinians were driven out and that it was the intentional policy of the Jewish terrorists.

    The Jews massacred villagers, poisoned wells.

    Of course, you say that you don't consult such sources. You are exactly like a christian fundamentalist anti-evolutionist. You are afraid of looking at facts that challenge your deeply held beliefs.

    The fact is that zionism is a violent racist totalitarian ideology.

  46. Bernanda, I've had enough with your lies, ignorance and rhetoric.

    I'm going to start deleting your posts from here on in. You aren't welcome here. You are a liar, a misfit, and overall an anti-semitic piece of shit.

    I don't need to see your posts anymore.

    You add nothing but lies here. Go whine all you want.

  47. BEAJ,

    I am sorry that Bern felt a need to add so much hatred to the discussion. I guess Israel is the only country in the world that is not allowed to defend herself in some peoples eyes. These people just want to see her destroyed. If a nation is attacked, especially with overwhelming numbers, she needs to do what ever it takes to survive.

    As to Anon and his God willing statement, please continue to believe in Allah and please continue to be so direct. It is easier to for the rest of us to know our enemy.

  48. I've read the posts here. I could have responded to many of them, but all I could feel was numb. I lived in Israel for 22 years and know how high emotions run there and here among those who want the country's destruction.

    Even a non-believer ends up believing in miracles when it comes to Israel's survival.

  49. Steve, Israel isn't just about religion. A few thousand French Jews left for Israel recently because of persecution and feeling unsafe. I have no idea how many of them were Atheist, but at least they had a place to go, and not worry about being set on fire for being a Jew.

    Who knows, maybe one day, Atheists will need to escape in the USA for instance. I hope Denmark, Canada or Sweden takes them in before they are murdered by raging Fundies.

  50. You are missing the point again Steve.
    Jews have been persecuted since day 1. Now we have a place to go if anti-semitism starts off any place on this planet.

    As far as religious countries goes, most countries in the West although secular are pretty much Christian. The middle eastern countries are pretty well Muslim. And Ireland and Italy are a pretty good refuge if you are a Catholic being persecuted.

    Israel is NOT a religious state, not only does it have Christians and Muslims and Druze, etc, half the Jews are secular, and around 25-40% are agnostic/atheist.

    You are confusing religion with ethnicity. I know it is a tough one, but think about it like this. Hitler murdered Jews, many did not believe in God or were not very religious. Now Jews everywhere have a place to go to avoid another Holocaust.

  51. Glo, you got a lot wrong the second time.

    Pimpette, you really surprised me with your lack of thought and perception in your post. I thought you were smarter than that. I'm not thinking that anymore.

  52. It started after Gaza. There was no change in the Palestinians. I gave up on them. When Hamas got elected, I lost all hope of ever giving them hope.

    Unfortunately, Palestinians exist.

    You should download BBCodeXtra from Firefox, if you use it, that way your links will work on blogger.

  53. Steve, since when does the Declaration of Independance dictate what Israel should do? What does that have to do with Islamic cultures. You sure stretch things.

    It's not up to you. It is up to Israel, and Israel will be smart about it much to your dislike.

    They will make their borders build a wall and defend herself like the US would defend itself it the Mexicans sent over bombs or suicide bombers.

    And you can whine all you want.

    It is amazing that Moonbats like you think that there are no consequences for bad decisions and losing wars.

    You dudes are insane.

  54. Steve, I am critical of Israel for a few things. You are just deaf dumb and blind. I swear, you have some kind of perception defect.
    Jews didn't start a war in WW2, nor did make decisions, they were just picked up and slaughtered.
    Israel has tons of party, and the one that got in said the same thing I say.
    The Palestinians deserve nothing. They don't want a state, they want the destruction of Israel (I'm talking the majority here).

    GLO, I'm not sure if Francis is talking the 1967 borders or the Partition borders. Those are two different things. I used to think 1967 borders, but the settlements have actual cities now. The smaller settlements can go, but it doesn't matter. The Gaza pullout meant nothing. And the West Bank isn't Arab land either any ways. It is disputed territory. It is a Red Herring.
    Israel took a step toward Palestinian statehood by leaving Gaza, and now Gaza is a breeding grounds for missiles and more terrorists. Appeasement is silly, Israel should just worry about herself, they don't have anyone to negotiate with.
    Again, a pullout from the West Bank would cost billions and billions of dollars.....and for what? The Arab world will still want to get rid of Israel.

  55. Steve, again you have to be one of the most dimwitted walls I've ever encountered. My post on Arab IQ and insanity was an attempt to figure out their behaviour.
    I didn't say Arabs are inbred morons alone, I pointed to a fact that 50% of Saudis are inbred. Whether inbreeding leads to idiocy is still not determined but strongly suspected. 50% are not inbred btw.
    The IQ and low literacy numbers too are fact. Am I racist for pointing out facts? Am I racist for pointing out Arab intolerance? These are observable facts.
    And yes, Israel is the only gem in the middle east.
    Educate yourself.

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  58. Sorry to reply to a really old post, hope you will see this, happened to find this by Google...

    I'm from Israel...

    BaconEating AtheistJew said...

    GLO, I don't think there is one Jew or one Israeli who wouldn't bend over backwards for assured peace.

    Regarding this - I have seen countless, *loud* rants, in social gatherings, on how the goverment should be more agressive towards the Arabs, and some Israelis outright despise Arabs altogether. You could say their hatred is more justified, but it is obviously still wrong.

    BTW, you should be careful and more specific in saying "they want assured peace" - nihlism is also "peace". You could say even suicide bombers just want peace - they are just entirely misguided in how to get it. (I am not at all defending suicide bombers! Just clarifing on how "peace" can be very misleading...)

    On another note, My take on all this is extremely radical - Agnostic. I firmly believe that the amount of attention given to the "arab problem" in Israel is entirely disproportionate to how big of a problem it is. Education and Road safety get zero screen time in Israel, and I personally find those to be much bigger and more important issues. Yearly, roughly ~20 israeli soldiers die from arab attacks, on the other hand, over 500 die from road accidents a year in Israel. Israeli universities are threatening to not open next year due to lack of budgeting, and this has been given zero media attention.

    Because the "arab problem" is given an extremely *HUGE* amount of attention, both nationally and internationally, as protest, I intentionally give it *ZERO* attention. To the point of my co workers being amazed that I do not know the current president/king/whatever of Syria...

    Which is not to say that it should be given zero attention - that would be also horrible because it is an important issue, it is not an excuse for not noticing other important issues and focusing solely on it.

    (I apologize for using the phrase "arab problem", I do not actually mean it in that way, it is simply most concise)

  59. My mother is Jewish and I was once a Jew. Once i understood science a bit more I also understood that I was lied to most of my life. The orthodox Jews insist and like to tell me "once a Jew always a Jew."
    Ironically this was also the stance of some of the biggest anti-semites in history who knew little of genetics and similarly worshiped bloodlines.
    Your mother being jewish does not make you "a jew" (outside of Torah law). This was hard for me to come to terms with for many years once I left the faith. African jews , middle eastern jews, European jews, and american jews share one commonality: belief in a jewish god.
    If you can post a peer reviewed scientific journal that states otherwise I would like to see it.

  60. My neighbours consider me to be a Jew. Like you said, anti-semites do too. So does my extended family.

    Scientifically? I guess you can't scientifically prove where someone is born by genetic mapping. Maybe you can have a good idea. I'm sure in my case, genetic mapping would indicate Jewish heritage.

    I consider you a Jew, you don't have to consider me to be one though.
    We both can get into Israel though.

  61. "jewish heritage," makes as much sense (in principle) as "christian heritage."

    Can you be a christian atheist, muslim atheist or hindu atheist? Do they inherit their ancestors religion?

    It doesn't make sense unless you practice the rituals or believe in the supernatural. Perhaps you believe in a Jewish soul that you inherit?

    As far as nationality:

    We are all born atheists, but we are not all born in neutral territory. This is a legal matter in accordance to the state you live in.
    Whether or not israel would take me in as a citizen because my mother is jewish does not confirm that i am indeed a jew. They can change their laws tomorrow and i will remain the same person.

    The "neturei karta" jews are still jews despite the fact that they are anti-zionist. Israel might take them in as well.

    Part of the reason why i have respect for the state of Israel is due to the fact that they are NOT a theocracy.
    (unlike the Muslim countries Israel does not have a stone-age mentality). You can be a zionist with jewish ancestry and not be a jew.

    P.P.S. you can still consider me a Jew if you wanted, I don’t mind :)

  62. Around six months ago, Richard Dawkins claimed he was a cultural Christian for what it is worth.

  63. I wont argue about the cultural aspects that people value.
    I still attend a family Passover Seder as an excuse to get together. I do not play the role of the "wicked son."
    (btw, I respect Dawkins as a biologist, but he falls a little short as a philosopher. Daniel Dennett seems to be even more cultural.

    Touch'e and...

    Le'hitraot : )

  64. Hey Baconeater... I love your blog!!! I finally saw someone else besides myself that has "outed" themselves as a Zionist Atheist! :-) I suspected that Herzl was an atheist and the articles that I have read and your blog have confirmed it. Thanks!!!

  65. Definitely agnostic any way.

  66. I also wonder why a land in such a strategic and economic place would be un owned may be it is because the British occupation made it so ?

    1. It was only made strategic and economic when more Jews started migrating to it in the early 20th century. How come nobody has a problem with Pakistan becoming a Muslims state around the same time as Israel. 5 million people were displaced in the late 40's thanks to its creation....oh wait, nothing to do with Jew.